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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Federation and Republic citizens, lets talk about the situation.
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Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-07-03 23:58:28 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Matari soldiers were present on both sides at Colelie, you should remember that before badmouthing the guarantors of your worthless life.

You're absolutely right, I'll amend my statement: the Matari Republicans at Colelie are oathbreakers, traitors, backstabbers, murderers, and kin-slayers. Or rather I should say they were those things. Now they're just dead, because in addition to all of that they were also stupid enough to fight an unwinnable battle and incompetent enough not to minimize losses.

So again, I apologize for misspeaking.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2013-07-04 00:47:17 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
There are communications logs from the battle where the Republic Fleet stated that they were operating under orders from the highest authorities in the Republic. That this selfsame authority has not made any statements regarding the battle is telling.


It wasn't a Republic fleet, it was an RSS fleet. RSS is the equivalent of your Federal Intelligence Office, in other words, spies and covert operations. An RSS fleet isn't necessarily inclined to give you the straight scoop.

If Shakor ordered an operation, he had his reasons.

I'd love to hear those reasons but they don't seem to be forthcoming.

I find it telling that Roden has not condemned the incident. Whether he was in on it, or simply doesn't care, I don't know.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

At the end of the day, Shakor leads the Republic (or the Tribes, or whatever he's favoring calling it these days), which makes him ultimately responsible for what happens during his tenure. That's how these things work.


Logic tells us decisions are made for a reason.

Cause and effect.

If there is Republic grievance towards the Federation, then the Federation itself is party to that relationship.

"Takes two to tango" as they say.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
In any case, I'm curious what's changed, pilot Cipher7. Soon after the battle happened, you offered very concrete theories about what the battle was all about. "The Statement", you recall?


I have lots of theories.

None as simplistic as "someone got mad."
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-07-04 01:04:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Shintoko Akahoshi
Cipher7 wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
There are communications logs from the battle where the Republic Fleet stated that they were operating under orders from the highest authorities in the Republic. That this selfsame authority has not made any statements regarding the battle is telling.


It wasn't a Republic fleet, it was an RSS fleet. RSS is the equivalent of your Federal Intelligence Office, in other words, spies and covert operations. An RSS fleet isn't necessarily inclined to give you the straight scoop.


Actually, reports from a number of sources all confirm that this was a Republic Fleet action:


In any case, I don't expect the fact that it was a Republic Fleet strike force to make any difference. The military itself is not responsible, Shakor is.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2013-07-04 01:10:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Pax Thar
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Every soldier has a choice whether or not to follow through with a disgraceful, unlawful, and dishonorable order given to them by their commander. But then perhaps the Matari soldiers at Colelie did resent their orders, but were simply incapable of disobeying orders.

So you may be right Cipher: the Republic soldiers may well not have been dishonorable fools. Perhaps they were simply honorable cowards.



Cowards they were not. They fought to the last man even given opportunity to disengage. You know nothing of my people, that much is obvious. Do you know anything of honor or duty? I don't know what orders were given to the Matar warriors that day... All I know is that they willingly gave their lives, knowing it would be so. If you call that cowardly, you know nothing of courage.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2013-07-04 01:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Shintoko Akahoshi
Pax Thar wrote:
Cowards they were not. They fought to the last man even given opportunity to disengage. You know nothing of my people, that much is obvious. Do you know anything of honor or duty? I don't know what orders were given to the Matar warriors that day... All I know is that they willingly gave their lives, knowing it would be so. If you call that cowardly, you know nothing of courage.


Oh, they very bravely fought to the last, as they attacked the closest ally the Republic possessed. I'll give them that.

Just the same, that doesn't fill me with desire to repair the Federation-Republic alliance.

President Roden: Don't stand for another Colelie. Let the treaty die!

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-07-04 01:22:41 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

You're absolutely right, I'll amend my statement: the Matari Republicans at Colelie are oathbreakers, traitors, backstabbers, murderers, and kin-slayers.


Their oath is to the Republic.

They died fulfilling that oath.

That is all.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-07-04 01:26:52 UTC
Pax Thar wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Every soldier has a choice whether or not to follow through with a disgraceful, unlawful, and dishonorable order given to them by their commander. But then perhaps the Matari soldiers at Colelie did resent their orders, but were simply incapable of disobeying orders.

So you may be right Cipher: the Republic soldiers may well not have been dishonorable fools. Perhaps they were simply honorable cowards.



Cowards they were not. They fought to the last man even given opportunity to disengage. You know nothing of my people, that much is obvious. Do you know anything of honor or duty? I don't know what orders were given to the Matar warriors that day... All I know is that they willingly gave their lives, knowing it would be so. If you call that cowardly, you know nothing of courage.

Dying mindlessly for your people and your "honor" is easy. Living for those things is hard. The Republicans who chose to die at Colelie were like sheep guided by a foolish shepherd into the mouths of wolves; many likely knew what they were doing was wrong, but all were too weak-willed and spineless to resist. In truth you should be applauding the Federation's success at the battle: the deaths of those Matari were a mercy, a permanent reprieve from a life stained by an act of treachery and dishonor.
Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-07-04 01:31:44 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Pax Thar wrote:
Cowards they were not. They fought to the last man even given opportunity to disengage. You know nothing of my people, that much is obvious. Do you know anything of honor or duty? I don't know what orders were given to the Matar warriors that day... All I know is that they willingly gave their lives, knowing it would be so. If you call that cowardly, you know nothing of courage.


Oh, they very bravely fought to the last, as they attacked the closest ally the Republic possessed. I'll give them that.

Just the same, that doesn't fill me with desire to repair the Federation-Republic alliance.

President Roden: Don't stand for another Colelie. Let the treaty die!



Their is no need to repair what isn't broken. We are pawns in this game, and pawns are sometimes sacrificed or stupidly lost in a botched play. We don't know the details, but the silence from the top of both governments speaks volumes to me.

And what closer ally does the Fed poses? We are no longer children in need of protecting, the Amarr can attest to that fact if not by speech, then by blood. Decisions were made by those above our pay grade.
Pax Thar
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-07-04 01:34:24 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Pax Thar wrote:
Bryen Verrisai wrote:
Every soldier has a choice whether or not to follow through with a disgraceful, unlawful, and dishonorable order given to them by their commander. But then perhaps the Matari soldiers at Colelie did resent their orders, but were simply incapable of disobeying orders.

So you may be right Cipher: the Republic soldiers may well not have been dishonorable fools. Perhaps they were simply honorable cowards.



Cowards they were not. They fought to the last man even given opportunity to disengage. You know nothing of my people, that much is obvious. Do you know anything of honor or duty? I don't know what orders were given to the Matar warriors that day... All I know is that they willingly gave their lives, knowing it would be so. If you call that cowardly, you know nothing of courage.

Dying mindlessly for your people and your "honor" is easy. Living for those things is hard. The Republicans who chose to die at Colelie were like sheep guided by a foolish shepherd into the mouths of wolves; many likely knew what they were doing was wrong, but all were too weak-willed and spineless to resist. In truth you should be applauding the Federation's success at the battle: the deaths of those Matari were a mercy, a permanent reprieve from a life stained by an act of treachery and dishonor.



Soldiers don't "resist" orders. Return to your desk and leave the fighting to those with the nature for it.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-07-04 01:35:00 UTC
Pax Thar wrote:
We are no longer children in need of protecting

Well I suppose we can agree that you're no longer in need of protecting. As for that first part, the actions of your people overshadow your optimistic words.
Kim Ji-Young
Ji Young Kim Bap
#111 - 2013-07-04 01:37:54 UTC
For everyone reading this thread who is getting a bit peckish, remember that my corporation does very reasonable rates on catering. We're also looking for staff, just send me a message or start a chat.

Carry on everyone.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2013-07-04 02:27:52 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

Actually, reports from a number of sources all confirm that this was a Republic Fleet action


You're right, I need sleep.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

In any case, I don't expect the fact that it was a Republic Fleet strike force to make any difference. The military itself is not responsible, Shakor is.


If you take the official story at face value ie "A republic fleet invaded Colelie, demanding Broteau, then fired on a Federation fleet" to me that's wrong.

The problem is the official story makes no sense.

That's just not who we are as a people.

It offends me that people don't see there must necessarily be more to the story.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-07-04 04:38:30 UTC
You're easily offended, then.

From my point of view, while I agree that there's a lot going on that isn't visible on the surface, it really comes down to something very simple: Alliances are built on trust, and I don't think the Gallente Federation can trust the Republic not to repeat Colelie.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-07-04 04:54:40 UTC
Pax Thar wrote:
And what closer ally does the Fed poses? [...] Decisions were made by those above our pay grade.


That whole phrase there doesn't make any sense to me. "What closer ally does the Fed possess?" Are you suggesting that the Federation has no closer ally than the Republic? That this should somehow worry people in the Federation? Are you going to trot out the Amarr Empire, that tired excuse of an example of why the Federation should be trembling at the idea of losing the Republic as an ally?

Speaking of that, I've been giving a lot of thought to the Amarr Empire lately. About the cultural similarities between the Federation and the Empire - our views on the value of continued education, on striving to improve ourselves. About the fact that, outside of the current CEMWPA debacle, there hasn't been any significant armed conflict between the Federation and the Empire in the history of our relationship. It's interesting food for thought...

In any case, I couldn't disagree more with your "Decisions were made by those above our pay grade" statement. That might be the way things are done in the Republic, but it's certainly not the way they're done in the Federation. We pursue our interests. We talk about issues that bother us, that affect us. So many of the decisions that are made in government are made directly by the people - by us - and those that are not (for instance, the decision whether or not to continue an alliance with the Republic) are still made by leaders who are informed by the discussions we have. So, no. The people making these decisions are emphatically not above our pay grades. Yours, maybe, but not ours.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Jorden Ishonen
Doomheim
#115 - 2013-07-04 08:12:31 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
That's just not who we are as a people.


That's not really the point. "The people" aren't the ones who decide where the fleets go and what they shoot at. People are pointing at Shakor because the chain of command ends with him. He hasn't said anything against the action, so people assume it has his blessing. You want to give your leaders benefit of the doubt, and I can sympathize. But you have to be honest with yourself and with others. Based on the information we have, there was no justification. If there is any, why would the Republic hesitate in trotting it out? Either the Federation did something horrible under the covers and needs to be exposed so its public can vote accordingly, or there IS no justification and Shakor is silent because there's nothing to say.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#116 - 2013-07-04 08:32:19 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:

If you take the official story at face value ie "A republic fleet invaded Colelie, demanding Broteau, then fired on a Federation fleet" to me that's wrong.


Well, unfortunately that's what happened. You can ask me or anyone of the other 80 capsuleers or so that was present at the field at the moment.
Those are raw facts, it's not a matter of feeling 'right' or 'wrong' about it. That's what happened, and no amount of wishful thinking or supposed conspiracy theories and secret agendas will change that.

Quote:
The problem is the official story makes no sense.
That's just not who we are as a people.
It offends me that people don't see there must necessarily be more to the story.


Ah yes. Knew the conspiracy theories weren't too far at this point.
I believe the problem is that this is just exactly what the Republic is like, yet, to draw an analogy, you're acting like a child who just lost a game, flipping the game table over, crossing his arms and yelling that 'you won because you say so'.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#117 - 2013-07-04 15:15:22 UTC
​The facts are simple and not in dispute.

A Tribal fleet supported by capsuleers loyal to the Tribal Entity violated Federal territory.

Unprovoked this fleet opened fire on Federal military assets killing Federal service personnel.

When at last Chieftain Midular is sent to her rest. The Tribals must answer for Colelie.

“Here also are the heralds of his praise."
Anslo
Scope Works
#118 - 2013-07-05 13:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
James Syagrius wrote:
​The facts are simple and not in dispute.

A Tribal fleet supported by capsuleers loyal to the Tribal Entity violated Federal territory.

Unprovoked this fleet opened fire on Federal military assets killing Federal service personnel.

When at last Chieftain Midular is sent to her rest. The Tribals must answer for Colelie.


When do the Angels answer for what they've done?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-07-05 16:42:21 UTC
All the time. Every major government sets a bounty on Cartel ships because of the past actions of the Cartel.

Personally, I think it's a bit extreme to set a similar bounty on Republic military vessels, but I can understand the impulse...

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#120 - 2013-07-06 07:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Interesting.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0