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ECM Tech II models - why should we even bother?
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Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#1 - 2013-06-30 08:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Dear Devs - One short question:

What are Tech 2 ECM models good for anymore?
They share the excact same stats with their Meta 4 equivalents while having higher demands on cpu usage. At the same time the Meta 4 module takes less activation cost.
So in fact Tech 2 moduls are worse than the Meta 4 versions but 10 times as expensive.
Is there any plan to mitigate that issue and give tech 2 a real winning margin - a right to exist?

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#2 - 2013-06-30 08:11:04 UTC
A fair amount of EWar (if not all) is like that. We'll see what the Devs plan to do. Go look at TDs and TPs and the sort.
Iri'yana
Corvus Technologies
#3 - 2013-06-30 08:52:57 UTC
If it would be consistent to other moduels, then the meta 4 variant should be sligntlyy less efficient than the tech2 module, but easier to fit at the same time.

Yet the current unholy alliance of easier fit, same bonus size and rather high drop frequency by rats (exceding demand for these modules) makes some tech2 modules essentially worthless.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#4 - 2013-06-30 09:14:12 UTC
Some other modules conform to this rule as well like warp scramblers (but not warp disruptors for some strange reason), plates before they were buffed, shield power relays etc, it's just a weird anomaly of EvE, don't understand why it bothers people so much, just don't use/produce the T2 versions of those modules, problem solved.
Whitehound
#5 - 2013-06-30 12:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Tech2 can be produced by players. Meta 4 has to be looted or imported. This makes for a more interesting economy and gives null-sec entities independence.

If it bothers you too much then get faction or deadspace modules and do not look back, but please do not complain about the prices.

I do not get why this is even a problem when you can get meta 4 and T2 items, and the choice of what you buy and fit is all yours. Seems like you have a little OCD here.

I think I just make some new threads for you:

Meta 0 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 1 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 2 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 3 ... why should we even bother?
...

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-06-30 12:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Whitehound wrote:
Tech2 can be produced by players. Meta 4 has to be looted or imported. This makes for a more interesting economy and gives null-sec entities independence.

If it bothers you too much then get faction or deadspace modules and do not look back, but please do not complain about the prices.

I do not get why this is even a problem when you can get meta 4 and T2 items, and the choice of what you buy and fit is all yours. Seems like you have a little OCD here.

I think I just make some new threads for you:

Meta 0 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 1 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 2 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 3 ... why should we even bother?
...


It is not the prices that bother me. I just think that tech 2 should be better than meta 4. It is even declareted as Meta 5.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#7 - 2013-06-30 12:47:03 UTC
Meta Levels aren't an indication of quality either, some high meta faction modules like faction shield boost amplifiers/hardeners are worse than T2 (they usually have better fitting but are not worth it)
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#8 - 2013-06-30 12:56:57 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Meta Levels aren't an indication of quality either, some high meta faction modules like faction shield boost amplifiers/hardeners are worse than T2 (they usually have better fitting but are not worth it)


Ok but when I remember correctly using a Meta version during invention even increases the chance of success to produce a Tech 2 BPC (hence a Meta 5). It would be strange to produce something with less quality in respect to the additional materials you need to "construct" it.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Whitehound
#9 - 2013-06-30 12:59:20 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
I just think that tech 2 should be better than meta 4.

Who says that it should and why should it not only be better than meta 3?

And when you think about the effort involved in producing Tech2 modules, the amount of science and industry skills needed for invention and manufacturing, should these not be at least as good as faction items or better?!? ...

I can think of other reasons than the meta level why something should or should not be, but the meta level itself is only a number and of no consequence.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-06-30 13:05:30 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
I just think that tech 2 should be better than meta 4.

Who says that it should and why should it not only be better than meta 3?

And when you think about the effort involved in producing Tech2 modules, the amount of science and industry skills needed for invention and manufacturing, should these not be at least as good as faction items or better?!? ...

I can think of other reasons than the meta level why something should or should not be, but the meta level itself is only a number and of no consequence.


Agreed on the quality level. Meta level was just figural as it would be the first thing someone notices when comparing the modules (First thing I learned searching for mining lasers for my Navitas on my first day of eve that give better yield). It woulld be intuitive to assume that Meta 3 is better than Meta 1 because it is a fact if you look at the stats. Meta 5 is also better than Meta 3. So is Meta 6 (faction) in case of the ECM modules. The only case where this progression fails is Meta 4 to Meta 5.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Whitehound
#11 - 2013-06-30 13:25:59 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
I just think that tech 2 should be better than meta 4.

Who says that it should and why should it not only be better than meta 3?

And when you think about the effort involved in producing Tech2 modules, the amount of science and industry skills needed for invention and manufacturing, should these not be at least as good as faction items or better?!? ...

I can think of other reasons than the meta level why something should or should not be, but the meta level itself is only a number and of no consequence.


Agreed on the quality level. Meta level was just figural as it would be the first thing someone notices when comparing the modules (First thing I learned searching for mining lasers for my Navitas on my first day of eve that give better yield). It woulld be intuitive to assume that Meta 3 is better than Meta 1 because it is a fact if you look at the stats. Meta 5 is also better than Meta 3. So is Meta 6 (faction) in case of the ECM modules. The only case where this progression fails is Meta 4 to Meta 5.

So you have a little ocd.

You know what gets me wondering each time I see it? It is the Inefficient Armor Repair Unit, which is more efficient than the meta 0 and meta 1 armor repairers.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2013-06-30 14:04:27 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Eugene Kerner wrote:
I just think that tech 2 should be better than meta 4.

Who says that it should and why should it not only be better than meta 3?

And when you think about the effort involved in producing Tech2 modules, the amount of science and industry skills needed for invention and manufacturing, should these not be at least as good as faction items or better?!? ...

I can think of other reasons than the meta level why something should or should not be, but the meta level itself is only a number and of no consequence.


Agreed on the quality level. Meta level was just figural as it would be the first thing someone notices when comparing the modules (First thing I learned searching for mining lasers for my Navitas on my first day of eve that give better yield). It woulld be intuitive to assume that Meta 3 is better than Meta 1 because it is a fact if you look at the stats. Meta 5 is also better than Meta 3. So is Meta 6 (faction) in case of the ECM modules. The only case where this progression fails is Meta 4 to Meta 5.

So you have a little ocd.

You know what gets me wondering each time I see it? It is the Inefficient Armor Repair Unit, which is more efficient than the meta 0 and meta 1 armor repairers.


Aren´t you a little funny man.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#13 - 2013-06-30 14:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Well, many of the EVE modules are funny like that. Take for example ECCM modules, where you have 2 different meta4 ones, both are better than the meta5, and each of them has the same strength bonus with different juice consumption rates...

Quote:

Meta 0 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 1 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 2 ... why should we even bother?
Meta 3 ... why should we even bother?
...


This is false. There are many circumstances where going for the meta3 module is far more beneficial, especially when using cheapskate PvP fits. Take for example webifiers, warp scramblers, dampeners, tracking disruptors, sebos etc. The meta4 modules are so much sought after that its makes sense to go lower meta in some applications.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#14 - 2013-06-30 17:44:30 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Some other modules conform to this rule as well like warp scramblers (but not warp disruptors for some strange reason), plates before they were buffed, shield power relays etc, it's just a weird anomaly of EvE, don't understand why it bothers people so much, just don't use/produce the T2 versions of those modules, problem solved.


This. If it bothers you, ignore meta levels.

T2 is always in demand if for no other reason than having a reliable, steady, region-independent supply. T2 is roughly equivalent to meta 4 in most cases. Sometimes it's outright better, sometimes it's equivalent in effect but harder to fit/keep running.

I've long preferred the idea of introducing additional spec skills to boost T2 modules that are caught in obscurity -- but obviously it hasn't happened yet. In the meantime, haven't we had enough of these damn threads pointing out the same pattern? Do I really need to do my traditional block of links?
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-07-01 03:42:39 UTC
talk to the sellers of the named gear....they give the stuff away most times. t2 has a base line price.....don't like that talk to mittens and the other moon goo masters, thats what fixes that price.


I look at this setup as a gift to ccp for those who are not wow-tards who go its a level 40 item so it must be better than a level 32 item.

Using compare in game, eft ino window comparing, etc the player who takes a few minutes finds some good fitting and/or performance easter eggs if you will. Nice aspect to the game vice others where its level 5 replace gear, level 10 replace gear, level 15 replace gear, etc like a mindless lemming. That high meta gear you found/bought day 10 still very useful 2 years later.




Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-07-01 05:33:54 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
talk to the sellers of the named gear....they give the stuff away most times. t2 has a base line price.....don't like that talk to mittens and the other moon goo masters, thats what fixes that price.


I look at this setup as a gift to ccp for those who are not wow-tards who go its a level 40 item so it must be better than a level 32 item.

Using compare in game, eft ino window comparing, etc the player who takes a few minutes finds some good fitting and/or performance easter eggs if you will. Nice aspect to the game vice others where its level 5 replace gear, level 10 replace gear, level 15 replace gear, etc like a mindless lemming. That high meta gear you found/bought day 10 still very useful 2 years later.






That is not what I was talking about. I do not care at all which Meta level an Item has as long as it is the best for the fitting I intend to build. As long as my opponent loses his/her ship I am fine. I just asked a question after the purpose of the Tech 2 Item.

Zhilia Mann wrote:
T2 is always in demand if for no other reason than having a reliable, steady, region-independent supply. T2 is roughly equivalent to meta 4 in most cases.

This sounds reasonable.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-07-01 06:54:32 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
talk to the sellers of the named gear....they give the stuff away most times. t2 has a base line price.....don't like that talk to mittens and the other moon goo masters, thats what fixes that price.


I look at this setup as a gift to ccp for those who are not wow-tards who go its a level 40 item so it must be better than a level 32 item.

Using compare in game, eft ino window comparing, etc the player who takes a few minutes finds some good fitting and/or performance easter eggs if you will. Nice aspect to the game vice others where its level 5 replace gear, level 10 replace gear, level 15 replace gear, etc like a mindless lemming. That high meta gear you found/bought day 10 still very useful 2 years later.






That is not what I was talking about. I do not care at all which Meta level an Item has as long as it is the best for the fitting I intend to build. As long as my opponent loses his/her ship I am fine. I just asked a question after the purpose of the Tech 2 Item.




if named gear sellers charged more, t2 ecm would have better sales. They don't so t2 is not so much as useless as priced out of competition. This is player controlled.

If BZ-5 shot up to 8 mil a unit...I do not need its easier fitting requirements nor do I really need the better cap use. I'd happily buy t2 all day long if way less than this. However I can go to jita and pick up BZ-5 for cheap, ergo I buy it.




related example, here is why I trained shield upgrade 5. When I did pvp the sellers of F-59 extenders charged alot for them. You buy them because the t2 is hard to fit. With my shield upgrade 5 I was able to fit t2 and save a fair amount of isk over time.
Moral of the story: named gear prices had me turn to t2 gear.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-07-01 12:12:54 UTC
Eugene Kerner wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Meta Levels aren't an indication of quality either, some high meta faction modules like faction shield boost amplifiers/hardeners are worse than T2 (they usually have better fitting but are not worth it)


Ok but when I remember correctly using a Meta version during invention even increases the chance of success to produce a Tech 2 BPC (hence a Meta 5). It would be strange to produce something with less quality in respect to the additional materials you need to "construct" it.



One of the reasons I don't even bother producing T2 shield boosters is because once the amount of time required factored, items, building cost and yada ya it's far easier to just brainwash my self killing rats for a couple hours and get a faction/ded shield booster easier to fit, consuming less cap on activation and reps at least 3x more.
T2 armor reps still have good days in front of them on market but T2 shield boosters?-nah, just plain bad.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Gildinous Vangaurd
The Initiative.
#19 - 2013-07-02 05:32:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cephelange du'Krevviq
Eugene Kerner wrote:
The only case where this progression fails is Meta 4 to Meta 5.


Not quite true; an example I often use in the Help channel are the 'Malkuth' missile launchers versus the 'Arbalest' launchers. While the 'Arbalest' have a higher rate of fire, the 'Malkuth' have a lower CPU fitting requirement, and therefore, are sometimes the "better" choice.


Back to the OP's question - aside from availability issues, there's really no reason to use the Tech II ECM modules over the Meta 4 Tech Is.

"I am a leaf on the...ah, frak it!"
ImmutableDark
Absalom.
#20 - 2013-07-02 11:10:38 UTC
Don't.