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At what point is something an Exploit and not game Mechanics ? Bumped for 60 Minutes

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Author
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#21 - 2013-06-30 17:05:08 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Unless the OP is bumped by the same people no matter where he/she goes despite being unprofitable... the OP has no case. What?


You're basing this on what exactly? I get the impression GM's have been consistently inconsistent on the issue.

ShahFluffers wrote:
tl;dr... computers and coding are actually quite "stupid" and can't reason. You also can't create or alter a blanket mechanic that affects so many things in the game without creating numerous exceptions and/or creating new, unforeseen consequences that will also be abused.


Now you're just being silly; computers are quite smart, especially when analyzing something already broken down into 1's and 0's. Your inability to come up with a naive solution doesn't indicate much of anything.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#22 - 2013-06-30 17:07:40 UTC
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
freighter ganking is obviously fine


Of course ganking is fine; maybe you should be more coordinated and manage it without bumping.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2013-06-30 17:07:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
S Byerley wrote:
Yes yes, constantly trying to warp off and bringing a webber is intolerable idleness. Not going to bite any further, sorry.
It's just one instance, so no, it does not apply.

The whole “follow around” bit relates to the basic idea of harassment that they are specifically targetting you on multiple occasions no matter what you do: try to do your business elsewhere, and they follow you; try to do it at other times, and they start changing their log-on schedule; present them with juicier and easier target, and they still go after you. We're talking multiple instances over a long period of time.

A single gank is never harassment because it's a single gank. You don't have to bite anything — you just have to understand the concept of context. I'm sure you''ll fail miserably.

Quote:
I am remiss not to acknowledge that he had the option to eject or self-destruct, apologies.
He had the option to keep conjuring CONCORD; he had the option to get warp help; he had the option to wait out the aggression timer (without which this tactic doesn't work — if he had none, he didn't even need that); he had an hour to it all in order, which means the gankers ****** up somehow, but that he ****** up even more in playing into their hands.

Quote:
Now you're just being silly; computers are quite smart, especially when analyzing something already broken down into 1's and 0's.
…in other words, they're pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.
Elizabeth Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-06-30 17:11:02 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
freighter ganking is obviously fine


Of course ganking is fine; maybe you should be more coordinated and manage it without bumping.


why
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-06-30 17:12:49 UTC
You tried to use logoffsky to escape, they found your logoff location and were still there when you came back. Nothing wrong with that.

Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#26 - 2013-06-30 17:13:18 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Elizabeth Aideron wrote:
freighter ganking is obviously fine


Of course ganking is fine; maybe you should be more coordinated and manage it without bumping.

Or maybe you should bring a squad of friends in suicide gank ships to guard your freighter from bumpers?

Think about it.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#27 - 2013-06-30 17:16:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
he had the option to wait out the aggression timer (without which this tactic doesn't work — if he had none, he didn't even need that); he had an hour to it all in order, which means the gankers ****** up somehow, but that he ****** up even more in playing into their hands.


You seem confused.

Tippia wrote:
…in other words, they're pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.


Eve is a computer simulation mate.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#28 - 2013-06-30 17:20:19 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
You seem confused.
I understand that knowing the mechanics will seem confusing to you.
Anything you want me to explain to you?

Quote:
Eve is a computer simulation mate.
…except that we're talking about GM evaluations of player actions and the intent behind those actions, not a computer simulation. So no, computers would be pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#29 - 2013-06-30 17:26:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
…except that we're talking about GM evaluations of player actions and the intent behind those actions, not a computer simulation. So no, computers would be pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.


Implying humans make consistent moral decisions? Incidentally, data mining would mimic human judgement with an extremely high degree of accuracy in a scenario like this. Computers are smart; people are bad at utilizing them.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#30 - 2013-06-30 17:28:43 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…except that we're talking about GM evaluations of player actions and the intent behind those actions, not a computer simulation. So no, computers would be pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.


Implying humans make consistent moral decisions? Incidentally, data mining would mimic human judgement with an extremely high degree of accuracy in a scenario like this. Computers are smart; people are bad at utilizing them.

Confirming TQ needs to mine data that it logs itself. It's not totally busy running a submarine sim.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Mag's
Azn Empire
#31 - 2013-06-30 17:28:44 UTC
Am I too late to point and laugh?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2013-06-30 17:31:54 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Implying humans make consistent moral decisions?
No, but at least they can make them, unlike computers.

Not that it matters anyway: it's all working as intended, and there's nothing about bumping that needs to be coded out. GMs already have the data needed to make their judgements on abuses of all kinds.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#33 - 2013-06-30 17:36:48 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…except that we're talking about GM evaluations of player actions and the intent behind those actions, not a computer simulation. So no, computers would be pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.


Implying humans make consistent moral decisions? Incidentally, data mining would mimic human judgement with an extremely high degree of accuracy in a scenario like this. Computers are smart; people are bad at utilizing them.

Confirming TQ needs to mine data that it logs itself. It's not totally busy running a submarine sim.


Classifications tend to be quite fast once you've sorted the training set. In any case, I didn't say I thought it was appropriate, just that I took exception to the thought that computers are somehow inept in this regard.
Darth Gustav
Sith Interstellar Tech Harvesting
#34 - 2013-06-30 17:46:38 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Darth Gustav wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Tippia wrote:
…except that we're talking about GM evaluations of player actions and the intent behind those actions, not a computer simulation. So no, computers would be pretty much useless for these kinds of judgement calls.


Implying humans make consistent moral decisions? Incidentally, data mining would mimic human judgement with an extremely high degree of accuracy in a scenario like this. Computers are smart; people are bad at utilizing them.

Confirming TQ needs to mine data that it logs itself. It's not totally busy running a submarine sim.


Classifications tend to be quite fast once you've sorted the training set. In any case, I didn't say I thought it was appropriate, just that I took exception to the thought that computers are somehow inept in this regard.

You also made an amazing statement: That data mining itself would mimic human judgement.

It won't.

It will just create metadata.

He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#35 - 2013-06-30 17:48:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
S Byerley wrote:
Classifications tend to be quite fast once you've sorted the training set. In any case, I didn't say I thought it was appropriate, just that I took exception to the thought that computers are somehow inept in this regard.

Yet, they are. I mean, you can keep saying "no, they're not" but you've misunderstood what you're asking them to define, and so do not understand why you're wrong on this.

Bumping with malicious intent is fine, so what use would a simulation that showed whether it was accidental or deliberate be?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Pewty McPew
EVE Corporation 2357451
#36 - 2013-06-30 17:53:47 UTC
Tuttomenui II wrote:
You tried to use logoffsky to escape, they found your logoff location and were still there when you came back. Nothing wrong with that.



Other then you didn't wait long enough before logging in.

Log on the next day right after downtime, just to be sure.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#37 - 2013-06-30 17:56:42 UTC
Darth Gustav wrote:
You also made an amazing statement: That data mining itself would mimic human judgement.

It won't.

It will just create metadata.


Metadata for procedural classifications = judgement; matching human results with a high degree of accuracy = mimicking

Dunno what you're trying to get at
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#38 - 2013-06-30 17:59:04 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
Classifications tend to be quite fast once you've sorted the training set. In any case, I didn't say I thought it was appropriate, just that I took exception to the thought that computers are somehow inept in this regard.

Yet, they are. I mean, you can keep saying "no, they're not" but you've misunderstood what you're asking them to define, and so do not understand why you're wrong on this.

Bumping with malicious intent is fine, so what use would a simulation that showed whether it was accidental or deliberate be?


If the result is trivial then making the computer produce it is trivial.

Is this some sort of ego thing?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2013-06-30 18:04:36 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Metadata for procedural classifications = judgement
No, metadata is just data about data. It's still two steps of refinement away from actionable knowledge.

Quote:
matching human results with a high degree of accuracy = mimicking
Dunno what you're trying to get at
…the fact that the categorization of data is not the result you're trying to mimic.

Quote:
If the result is trivial then making the computer produce it is trivial.
The result is not trivial, and it is also pretty useless. It's a ton of processing to create something the GMs don't need to make their judgement call. So what good is it?
Dalts
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#40 - 2013-06-30 18:09:08 UTC
You should have done that thing where you wave your hand and say: "This is not the freighter you are looking for"