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Black Ops choices
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Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#1 - 2013-06-27 02:05:05 UTC
I've been wanting to train for Black Ops since I started playing Eve. Back then I had incorrect ideas on how it all worked (for example: I was lead to believe that you didn't need a cyno in order to jump a BlOps ship into a system).

In spite of that, I still want to train to fly a BlOps ship. My reasoning has changed, but whatever.

The decision I would like some assistance with is choosing *which* ship to train for.

The character I'm looking to train is skilled with both missiles and drones, so, as a matter of using skills that I already have, I have been strongly considering either the Widow or the Sin.

That is where I am somewhat stuck, however. The bonuses for the ships differ quite a bit, and I'm not unwilling to look at a Panther or Redeemer. The barrier is that it's a 30+ day commitment to train one or the other.

What are the pro's and con's of the different ships in regards to game mechanics?
(for example: one disadvantage I do know of with the Sin, is that the Drone UI sucks)
What is currently the most popular choice for this role?
Is there any reason to fit the ship with long range weapons (i.e. rails vs. blasters, etc.)?

Profit favors the prepared
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-27 02:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
none of the blops ships are particularly good in combat they are best used as covert bridges

they don't even have that much improved resists compared to their t1 hulls either, most of the time when they are fielded in combat they just end up as expensive lossmails.

Art of Explosions
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-06-27 03:54:42 UTC
Strictly from a PvE perspective all four ships are pretty decent combat wise.

The sin will manage the most AFK-ability, and the redeemer and panther can actually perform pretty respectably when stacked up against their marauder counterparts. The redeemer manages to achieve DPS and tank comparable to the paladin, circumstances depending, while the panther can push out more rDPS at the cost of weaker damage application and lower tank than the vargur. The panther would also need to use artillery to achieve the same damage projection as the vargur which in turn limits its close-in DPS much more if it wants to use sentries to make full use of its 125mb and 175m3 drone capacity. If heavy drones weren't so bad in PvE at the moment the panther would be in an even better position.

The widow also manages to be a solid ship, but the golem does almost 20% more missile DPS. It's a tossup on tanking between the two, however. The larger cargo bay on the golem makes it better for running a cap injector giving it a higher sustained tank, but the widow can fit a second cap mod making two cap rechargers a possibility. Somehow I'm also getting the widow to show a stronger maximum tank than the golem even though the golem's the ship with the boosting bonus. I expect that there might be an error in EFT on that part, but it could be legit.

Pretty much anything I might say on black ops from a PvP perspective would amount to hearsay, but that hearsay suggests that widows are one of the more popular black ops choices when no/low-sec combat might be possible due to the ECM bonus and redeemers are apparently one of the more popular choices for ganking mission runners due to their high damage output.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#4 - 2013-06-27 04:08:52 UTC
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))

Sin is just nice as it's great for taking out smaller targets that go after your stealth bombers.

Other 2 are more just straight dps machines.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-06-27 04:43:14 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))

Sin is just nice as it's great for taking out smaller targets that go after your stealth bombers.

Other 2 are more just straight dps machines.


They're really just bridges.

You don't really want to fly with your bombers. SBs are cheap. When they die, they die. Widow is too much to risk to save SBs, and it can't keep up anyway. Use recon if you want to fly with bombers.

Panther can work for cloaky arty gategank.

Sin is a droneboat, not a particularly good one.

Redeemer is... I got nothing.P
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#6 - 2013-06-27 06:09:56 UTC
Right now the Redeemer is the best because it has the most low slots for cargo expanders, and that's the only thing that matters on a black ops. You make a bridge and then switch to your recon/bomber main while the black ops sits safely at a POS.

If you want to do more than be a jump bridge alt wait until black ops are re-balanced. CCP has acknowledged that they suck and need a major redesign, so (hopefully) by the time you have the skills to use one properly whatever advice we gave you will be obsolete.
Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#7 - 2013-06-27 06:33:09 UTC
Don't listen to above posters.

I fly black ops quite often, and combat capabality wise the Panther and Redeemer just stand out for dps and with decent tank.
As support the widow is just the best. ECM will rock your world and you will want to bring that.

Besides that, the SIN as neuting/logi boat is just amazing.

all 4 of them can be used depending on your total fleet setup, and it doesn't hurt to have someone with an armor mindlink.

Feel free to convo me in game for some additional information. Cool
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#8 - 2013-06-27 06:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Caius Sivaris
Evei Shard wrote:
I've been wanting to train for Black Ops since I started playing Eve. Back then I had incorrect ideas on how it all worked (for example: I was lead to believe that you didn't need a cyno in order to jump a BlOps ship into a system).

In spite of that, I still want to train to fly a BlOps ship. My reasoning has changed, but whatever.

The decision I would like some assistance with is choosing *which* ship to train for.

The character I'm looking to train is skilled with both missiles and drones, so, as a matter of using skills that I already have, I have been strongly considering either the Widow or the Sin.

That is where I am somewhat stuck, however. The bonuses for the ships differ quite a bit, and I'm not unwilling to look at a Panther or Redeemer. The barrier is that it's a 30+ day commitment to train one or the other.

What are the pro's and con's of the different ships in regards to game mechanics?
(for example: one disadvantage I do know of with the Sin, is that the Drone UI sucks)
What is currently the most popular choice for this role?
Is there any reason to fit the ship with long range weapons (i.e. rails vs. blasters, etc.)?


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3180400#post3180400 for some interesting stats

Panther or Redeemer have the best results for obvious reason, because they do lots of instant DPS.

Window is not very good because its dps is so-so, and its jamming ability suffer from coming last on the battlefield (better bridge a Falcon first thing) and jamming and poor scan res don't go hand in hand.

The Sin is basically, :lolwut:

The Panther and Redeemer do what is expected of a Black Ops, bridge people then bring lots of DPS and heavy neuts (the people telling you they do less DPS than a carrier either can't be trusted to fit even a frigate or can't be trusted because they are EFT warriors fitting Drone Control Units on carriers). The Panther can be both shield and armor tanked, but its DPS suffers in armor tank fit.


Or you can listen all the bads that tell you to just use them as bridge and go for the shortest train.

Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))


Pro tip : bridge Falcons.
Oxide Ammar
#9 - 2013-06-27 07:24:08 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))

Sin is just nice as it's great for taking out smaller targets that go after your stealth bombers.

Other 2 are more just straight dps machines.


They're really just bridges.

You don't really want to fly with your bombers. SBs are cheap. When they die, they die. Widow is too much to risk to save SBs, and it can't keep up anyway. Use recon if you want to fly with bombers.

Panther can work for cloaky arty gategank.

Sin is a droneboat, not a particularly good one.

Redeemer is... I got nothing.P


As he said Black ops ships are only bridges in/out, they are too much expensive to waste them in small pvp gang with SBs. I have never seen blop ship fire single round in fight and in terms of ewar force recon ships offers excellent alternative on much much cheaper cost than blops. In terms of PVE, there also much cheaper BS to overcome blops in dps and tank.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Marcus Gideon
Triglavian Assembly
#10 - 2013-06-27 07:56:42 UTC
I think the greatest flaw in Black Ops, is being the last redheaded stepchild to inherit Covert cloaks.

Once upon a time, Bombers and Black Ops were the only 2 "covert" ships that couldn't use a CovOp cloak. They had to decloak in order to warp about. To make up for it, they were given a bonus that allowed them to start targeting immediately out of cloak, rather than waiting 30-45sec like a plain ship would.

The PTB eventually got around to fixing that little oversight... for the Bombers. Now not only can they use the CovOp cloak, warping about unseen. But they still retain the immediate targeting.

Sitting now by itself at the kiddie table, the Black Ops has to lug around a generic Cloak. Hence why everyone above has mentioned... it's a Bridge machine, and little else.

You send a real CovOp ship ahead, who lights a CovCyno. Then you Bridge across so your hoard of CovOp ships can rush in. Theoretically, you could Jump in yourself, cloak in place, and wait to give the fleet a ride home. Or you warp back to a station, and swap for another ship worth flying in a fight.

Black Ops perform equal to worse than their T1 counterparts. And they cost a hell of a lot more to replace. Their immediate targeting is a waste, unless you manage to lure your targets to where they are already waiting.

Guaranteed... if a Black Ops could fit a CovOp cloak, you'd see a LOT more use out of them. Otherwise... they're a mobile Stargate, and nothing more.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#11 - 2013-06-27 09:02:36 UTC
Marcus Gideon wrote:

You send a real CovOp ship ahead, who lights a CovCyno. Then you Bridge across so your hoard of CovOp ships can rush in. Theoretically, you could Jump in yourself, cloak in place, and wait to give the fleet a ride home.


Did you even ever board a black ops? Not even talking of using it in anger...

The idea of cloaking in place after jumping, in the middle of a swarm of drones, is hilarious. Me? I just shoot and neut the primary while aligning and making range. And I never missed the covops cloak, because being out of system before the fight is a lot more stealthy than being able to warp cloaked...
Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#12 - 2013-06-27 10:55:19 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))

Sin is just nice as it's great for taking out smaller targets that go after your stealth bombers.

Other 2 are more just straight dps machines.


They're really just bridges.

You don't really want to fly with your bombers. SBs are cheap. When they die, they die. Widow is too much to risk to save SBs, and it can't keep up anyway. Use recon if you want to fly with bombers.

Panther can work for cloaky arty gategank.

Sin is a droneboat, not a particularly good one.

Redeemer is... I got nothing.P


As he said Black ops ships are only bridges in/out, they are too much expensive to waste them in small pvp gang with SBs. I have never seen blop ship fire single round in fight and in terms of ewar force recon ships offers excellent alternative on much much cheaper cost than blops. In terms of PVE, there also much cheaper BS to overcome blops in dps and tank.


dude, you know **** about this lol. So please stop talking about how bad blops are.
Blops are not just bridges, they can be easily used for combat.

@everybody else, stop crying about cov ops cloak on blops, it's not needed.
Vervz
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-06-27 11:24:34 UTC
You cant fit a covert ops cloak to a blackops battleship? WATDAFAQ?
Pitt POssum
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-06-27 11:44:18 UTC
Can fly em all, flew am all.

If you dont use em to bridge they get a bit better as the bridge eats a lot of cpu and pg.

Widow:
- saves you bridging a falcon, which is nice on your fuelbay
- locking time is an issue if you are the falcon substitute
- powergrid is utter ****, no way to fit it decent with torps and bridge in my opinion, cruises are a pain aswell, but not as bad as torps

Panther:
- does everything, but nothing really good
- its fast (which is kinda pointless in most situations)
- variable dmg types make it rather nice to hot drop farmers

Redeemer
- solid tank (for a Blops)
- solid DPS
- a bit short on cpu, nothing a bit bling and some implants can't solve
- you can go cargo expender crazy

Sin
- kinda like the panther
- it's not as bad as many say, its just kinda bad, like all blops
- versitile

As for covert ops cloaking, you dont need to warp cloacked as you normally hotdrop, the only place where covertops cloaking makes sense is WH space. In K-Space the only use for the cloaking device is to harvest tears of red cross clickers. And in W-Space the Blops are utterly outmatched in perfomance and price by T3s, no point in getting em in there.

@ the guy comparing blops pve performance: not sure if troll or something is very wrong with you

@ OP: get a redeemer with cargo rigs and cargo expanders, best Blops out there
Oxide Ammar
#15 - 2013-06-27 11:49:15 UTC
Evanga wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))

Sin is just nice as it's great for taking out smaller targets that go after your stealth bombers.

Other 2 are more just straight dps machines.


They're really just bridges.

You don't really want to fly with your bombers. SBs are cheap. When they die, they die. Widow is too much to risk to save SBs, and it can't keep up anyway. Use recon if you want to fly with bombers.

Panther can work for cloaky arty gategank.

Sin is a droneboat, not a particularly good one.

Redeemer is... I got nothing.P


As he said Black ops ships are only bridges in/out, they are too much expensive to waste them in small pvp gang with SBs. I have never seen blop ship fire single round in fight and in terms of ewar force recon ships offers excellent alternative on much much cheaper cost than blops. In terms of PVE, there also much cheaper BS to overcome blops in dps and tank.


dude, you know **** about this lol. So please stop talking about how bad blops are.
Blops are not just bridges, they can be easily used for combat.

@everybody else, stop crying about cov ops cloak on blops, it's not needed.


You need to train learning lvl V, I didn't say it's bad to pvp in blops I said it's not feasible to pvp in 750+ mill ship when you have much cheaper and do same job, ABC of any isk mangement. If it's for just your " I PvP in my Blop boat" Epeen this is something else you can show off as much as you like here.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
#16 - 2013-06-27 12:09:11 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:

You need to train learning lvl V, I didn't say it's bad to pvp in blops I said it's not feasible to pvp in 750+ mill ship when you have much cheaper and do same job, ABC of any isk mangement. If it's for just your " I PvP in my Blop boat" Epeen this is something else you can show off as much as you like here.


Which other ship exactly can jump/be bridged to a (covert) cyno and bring 1000+ DPS and a heavy neuts? The only thing that compare is a carrier, and cheaper isn't exactly the right qualifier.
Oxide Ammar
#17 - 2013-06-27 12:48:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Oxide Ammar
Pitt POssum wrote:
@ the guy comparing blops pve performance: not sure if troll or something is very wrong with you


Tell
this
to
them.

Because apparently some people think that blops is the next step in pve progression,just like that guy who insist to rat in hostile systems in his carrier. Since the OP didn't stated clearly why he wants to train for Black Ops I replied for both aspects of the game.

Caius Sivaris wrote:
Which other ship exactly can jump/be bridged to a (covert) cyno and bring 1000+ DPS and a heavy neuts? The only thing that compare is a carrier, and cheaper isn't exactly the right qualifier.


I can do it, you can do it but I don't see everyone doing it. F E A S I B I L I T Y.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Grandma Squirel
#18 - 2013-06-27 13:50:30 UTC
There is a reason the elite pvpers drop Blops rather then bridging in, they care more about performance per player then they do about performance per isk. 10 Blops is alot more dangerous then 1 bridge Blops and 9 bombers. Reseting pure Blops for the next drop is also both quicker, and less prone to delays.
Dewa Pedang
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-06-27 14:19:46 UTC
Oxide Ammar wrote:
Evanga wrote:
Oxide Ammar wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Widow is first choice as the ecm can help your bombers and other covert ships. (( save other peoples losses ))

Sin is just nice as it's great for taking out smaller targets that go after your stealth bombers.

Other 2 are more just straight dps machines.


They're really just bridges.

You don't really want to fly with your bombers. SBs are cheap. When they die, they die. Widow is too much to risk to save SBs, and it can't keep up anyway. Use recon if you want to fly with bombers.

Panther can work for cloaky arty gategank.

Sin is a droneboat, not a particularly good one.

Redeemer is... I got nothing.P


As he said Black ops ships are only bridges in/out, they are too much expensive to waste them in small pvp gang with SBs. I have never seen blop ship fire single round in fight and in terms of ewar force recon ships offers excellent alternative on much much cheaper cost than blops. In terms of PVE, there also much cheaper BS to overcome blops in dps and tank.


dude, you know **** about this lol. So please stop talking about how bad blops are.
Blops are not just bridges, they can be easily used for combat.

@everybody else, stop crying about cov ops cloak on blops, it's not needed.


You need to train learning lvl V, I didn't say it's bad to pvp in blops I said it's not feasible to pvp in 750+ mill ship when you have much cheaper and do same job, ABC of any isk mangement. If it's for just your " I PvP in my Blop boat" Epeen this is something else you can show off as much as you like here.





My good man , id like to make you a offer you cant refuse , please keep using your pretty pretty bombers killing that random cane that roamed around your region last week and leave the Black Ops Battleships to the big boys .
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=18026729
Thats just one example to lazy to look up more .

As it stands all blops are fun to play with but they do require you to have friends if you want to " fight " in em and not just gank random target . Redeemer has the best dmg application , sin is nice for neuting , panther has 1 neut slot , widow can jam . Also might want to fit RR if your gona be using more then 1 in your fleet
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-06-27 15:14:10 UTC
Pitt POssum wrote:
@ the guy comparing blops pve performance: not sure if troll or something is very wrong with you


Neither. PvE is a legitimate facet of EVE Online, and even on ships that are generally considered by the community to be PvP-only how it can be used in PvE is still a factor. Furthermore given how abysmal many of the people in this topic seem to rate the PvP performance of these ships they might as well use them for PvE. They aren't truly horrible from that perspective, and some are pretty good. The redeemer, in fact, is pretty damn comparable to the paladin with the added bonus of being cheaper.

Oxide Ammar wrote:
Tell
this
to
them.

Because apparently some people think that blops is the next step in pve progression,just like that guy who insist to rat in hostile systems in his carrier. Since the OP didn't stated clearly why he wants to train for Black Ops I replied for both aspects of the game.


Personally it has nothing to do with "progression" so much as what a ship can be used for. I've run L4 missions with heavy interdictors and recon ships for the fun of it, not because it was more practical or profitable. Black ops ships are in kind of the same category.

The sin, contrary to what you'd hope/expect with its drone capabilities, is probably the worst of the lot for PvE usage though. You'd need a situation where being able to move fast while cloaked, jump out, or fire up a bridge would make it useful to make it worth using, and in that scenario the other ships would likely do it better while PvE'ing better too. It doesn't even have much of a "for fun" niche since the dominix and navy dominix crap all over it while the widow's T1 counterpart isn't a damage dealer and the panther and redeemer had their T1 counterparts repurposed away from the combat bonuses of said black ops ships.
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