Intergalactic Summit

Hm. Oh my. Is it a bit... warm in here? Anyone? Just me?

And this is all the rebuttal you manage. I might remember this wrong but I do believe there was a time when you had something more going for you than a joking and incorrect evaluation of my sexual preferences and any interest in you in that regard.

I did laugh however when I recalled an identical taunt from my basic education days, back home. I was 12 at the time.

I have to hand it to you though, if this is how your going to counter-argue any accusation cast on you by others, I should pay more attention to what you say in return, it could provide allot of entertainment.

I am aware of the history. And with the utmost respect for the elements of the Empire's leadership involved in such deals, I believe they were wrong. The sale of slaves to non-Holders, non-faithless, and for the purpose of developing such heretical methods of control, should have never been done. That Nation was later shown to be vile and depraved was surely Divine retribution, revealing the wrongness of such arrangements having ever been made.

That does not change the fact that Kuvakei was lying about the progress of his research, and hiding the extent of the evil that he was doing. Had we known these things at the beginning, I'm sure we would have never made the arrangements.

Why even bother trying to have a discussion with an opponent who ignores facts, blatantly spreads lies and propaganda and whose view you have no hope of influencing? Better to turn your energies to destroying Sansha's minions rather than talking with them.

As to Pilot Weitong; if you truly believe the crap you're spouting you're a damned fool. While the Republic may have recently committed some very questionable acts, we've never kidnapped people by the tens of millions and turned them into zombie armies to be used against the other empires. We've never waged aggressive wars for the purpose of subjugating all of humanity. We've never produced a megalomaniac like Kuvakei.

You should stop being so blindly biased and appraise the situation rationally. No one in their right mind would place the Matari on the same level as the Nation. Hell, as much as I oppose the Amarr I don't even see them as the same threat level as Nation. At least there's some evidence to suggest that more liberal views will come to the fore in the Empire and make changes for the better. There's not a single reason to believe that to be the case for Nation.

You will need to be more specific. Which 'aggressively' expansionist empires, factions or other forces are you referring to? Do you have one in mind, are you generalising or are you speaking hypothetically? What is your personal understanding of the 'Nation agenda'?


I answered this earlier in the thread. It has to do with CONCORD's mandate which concerns all of humanity. The sovereign space of its signatories is irrelevant to that mandate.


This isn't for me to answer definitively as I'm not personally trying to justify a conflict more than 70 years in the past. The historical facts are that the events leading up to and occurring around YC37 constituted a formally-declared war on a scale that, to my knowledge, hadn't been witnessed before. Each side of the argument tries to cast that in different shades of 'right' or 'wrong', but at the ground level it's really quite straight forward - war is a destructive way to resolve any conflict.

Which explains why diplomacy was repeatedly attempted by CONCORD and the empires with a desire to avoid this outcome.


Again, these are perhaps questions for someone else to answer.

As for the opinions implied by your statements you're welcome to them. To me they seem superficial and poorly rationalised but I'll admit that as you didn't spend much time explaining your reasoning I may not fully understand why you hold them.

1. 3 empires have agressive expansionistic agendas. The difference lies in vector of approach.
The State is a very aggresive expansionist in a mercantile manner, where as the Amarr Empire and the gallente federation have an agenda of turning all humans to their cause. Being either religious or secular.
All 3 of these empires would love nothing more than a cluster wide domination of their spheres of interest.
How these dominations would work in practise I'll let your imagination sort out.
Let's just say that the State has absolutely no interest in what you do in private.

I'm not actually entirely sure what the Republic agenda is anymore, as it seems to have deviated greatly from the matari I once knew and called friends.

2. Concordes mandate is not protecting humanity. That is a very nice, but very naive thought.
Concorde protects it's signatories and nothing else. Proven in part by the attempted eradication of Nation. Proven in part by the fact that we as capsuleers can still buy a legal license to kill baseliner crew on other capsuleer vessels.
If concordes mandate stretches all over the cluster, then so does their responsibility. If this is the case they have already failed and should be removed from their position of power.

3. I understand that diplomacy was attempted. And it was given up upon. Then we attacked
How can you claim that nation have done anything else than fight a war we started with them some 70 years ago.
Let me reiterate. WE started the war. Not nation. How is it, that we started a war and almost completely eradicated a way of life, yet still claim moral high ground?
We agree that war is destructive, but again I do need to underline that the war was not Nations choice.

The real question, that you so very eloquently dodged is this:
Why was Nation not allowed to exist, and why are we still trying to destroy it, forcing them into a desperate fight for survival?
Fear-mongering and racism. And here 70 years later they are still our greatest foes.


4 and 5 was directed at the representatives of nation and as such I didn't much expect an answer from others.


My opinions seem superficial and poorly rationalised?

I'd like rational reasons for how any faction have done more damage to cluster stability than the Republic. Even our own mad dictators play for power was fueled by Republic actions.

I'd like rational reasons why accepting the pirate factions as individual independent states is a bad idea. Accepting them as full states gives more options for sanctions and the like.

I'd like rational reasons why we shouldn't trade with Nation and try to get this ridiculous war done with. Peace is after all marginally more profitable than war.

These are the only 3 opinions I have stated. If you felt I implied anything else I am sorry for the misunderstanding I might have caused.
The rest are merely questions that neither side of the discussion have elaborated upon or actively tried to dodge.

If Kuvakei's intentions were to peacefully create a utopian state outside of empire territory, then he wouldn't frequently and blatantly violate empire sovereignty by invading it. He is a despot, and a persuasive one; I'll give him that. However, his goal is to subjugate the human race, rather than guide it to its potential. This cannot be allowed.

This idea that Kuvakei has returned because he's under threat, well that may be true, but instead of using his technology to take his people away from this cluster to find safety, he's brought them back to fight a war over his bruised ego.

Stirling leadership there.

Do not think that comparing our disagreement to contemporary political stupidity will win you this argument; the two are hardly related. Caldari, Gallente, Minmatar, and Ammarians are all human, and eventually will recognize their commonality to resolve their disputes. Nation slaves are less than human. "Perfect" in every since of the word, they will cease to change, evolve, improve and thrive. Your cause believes it is liberating humanity, but in fact you are stunting it. As a teacher, and a human being, I will not tolerate this.