Crime & Punishment

Don't spin it around Andrei, don't give me that. 1 corp member doesn't get his entire corp blacklisted AND wardecced AND hated by incursion runners. If that was the case, we'd have half of EVE blacklisted already.
And don't tell me your hand was forced on this and don't put the blame for the actions of your corporation on us.
See this from our perspective and one of our goals. To insure the safety and security of incursion runners.
When reports suggesting multiple corp members from the same corp are griefing incursion runners then it is only natural and logical to blacklist the entire corp instead of preventing crimes from being repeatedly committed by the same pilots we can PRE-secure.
*in b4 the racism and generalization name calling*

If you dislike the actions or the consequences of the actions of your fellow corp members you are free to leave. That's how it is being together with a group of pilots. Each of those pilots will represent the entire group through their actions.
The "most fluid isk faucet" is not denied to you. We are denying you access to some channels, no one is saying you can't go and do incursions with your own corp/alliance/blues/friends. Don't be a hypocrite.


You are misunderstanding, probably my fault for the wording (english is not my native language).
I am saying that given the choice to pick (a choice of prioritizing) would it be fixing the entire EVE economy / preventing it from collapsing OR something of lesser importance? (Not saying hybrid turrets are not important, but without a working game ecenomy that lays the foundation for almost everything we see in-game I'd say turrets are less prioritized. You don't see a whole department within CCP dedicated to hybrid turrets. That's my point).

And since they are actually trying to change this (supercaps, blasters, ships rebalancing) it is actual of importance to CCP. However you don't see any rebalancing for incursions in the patches, do you? Not saying there won't be a chance of a nerf from CCP on incursions, but everything else has had higher priority.
Simply .... if the market was about to fall on its knee due to incursions and other contributing factors we would see radical changes within a short timeperiod. Nothing has been suggested except PLEX manipulation by CCP lately...

I know you're having fun in incursions and I bet it's great, congratz for that and good for you having found a way to enjoy the game. I am not trying to convince you to stop or anything similar. I am simply discussing the whole incursion feature.

PS: I lol'ed at the PLEX being Iceland's national currency.

PPS: For everyone. Just like I am not telling you how to the play the game you shouldn't be telling anyone else how to play the game or what profession they choose to occupy themselves with (I know I will be getting so many quotes about this paragraph disagreeing with me ).
If you want to move players to nullsec, lowsec or anywhere for that matter you cannot force this upon others.
Don't you laugh at those incursion runners who tell you to stop griefing? Why shouldn't they laugh at you telling them to stop running incursions?

In fact, one member did get our entire corp blacklisted AND wardecced by Incursion runners (the by Incursion runners part is secondhand from the mercs that were hired, and told to inform us of the origin of the contract). This is a fact: Slimy Worm griefed Incursions and no one else in our corp was interested because the ISK rewards from his methods of ganking were slim, while the rewards for running the sites were obviously very high. Some of our members even ran Incursions legit while he was ganking. In this you seem to be ill-informed. It was the blacklisting and wardec that kicked our griefing into gear as a corp (because we had nothing left to lose), and eventually led to us becoming quite efficient at both successfully griefing and making ISK doing it. The burden of this campaign rests solely on the shoulders of the (I forget the number in the hundreds that was cited) Incursion runners who chipped in to wardec Slimy Worm's corp, and the person or persons who decided to blacklist our entire corp before thinking about the possible rammifications (even though we had no interest in griefing as a corp prior to that).

Now the part about being hated by Incursion runners is mostly our own badge of honor, because we've earned our infamy through the more than 100 billion ISK we've destroyed (not counting several faction BS ejects and ransoms, unfortunately those guys don't go on our trophy wall).

Admittedly, the part about my hand being forced might be a slight exaggeration, I mean I could have chosen to roll over and let some random dudes that I've never interacted with ban me from the premier Incursion channels, but if you knew me then you'd know that would never happen.

And lol at the part about ensuring the safety of Incursion runners... You guys really messed that up for 187 of those poor souls.


I shall refer you to this statement, in your apparent frustration at being grouped with the people who have inflicted this upon the Incursion community.


Please point out where my actions are not in line with my statements. Otherwise, I will consider this to be arbitrary Ad Hominem as a result of your argumentative impotence.


And yet we got sitting in stations before the supercap and hybrid turret fixes... Your fallacy is that you presume that CCP have an omniscient view of the needs of the player base. This has clearly been proven to not be the case in many of the recent changes to Eve. Also, again, I never made the assertion that Incursions were actually ruining the game economy. When you quote me, and then reply with unrelated comments that seem to be intended to insinuate a fabricated stance on my behalf, it only reflects poorly upon your argumentative stance.


Now, if you please, consider the time frames involved in these two situations. Supers have been in Eve for much longer than Incursions have. It has taken supers literally ruining sovereign 0.0 for CCP to address them.

Also, I'll have you know that my primary problem with the effects of Incursions on the economy is my suspicion of their role in the inflation on PLEX prices.

~Andrei.

First a short time line

Slimy worm griefed incursions > Skunkworks was banned from incursion channels > Skunkworks unhappy about this > Skunkworks band together to grief incursions > we found it to be extremely easy, lulzy fun > we declare 60bil challenge > we have hit well over 100bil

Now a list of likely reasons individuals in Skunkworks are doing this, from the biggest reason to the smallest.

Its fun!
Its funny!
Its actually making us a bunch of isk and getting us free ships!
We like finding game mechanics not often used
Revenge
Incursions are ruining EvE’s market

I hope this helps for future reference.

B - U - L - L - S - H - I - T

Please prove it.

So far your "evidence" they do NOT have a negative effect, has been "but CCP would fix it!"
Now that has been shown as being dumbshit thinking, you're going "No you prove it or it isn't!"

Other arguments of this sort: Global warming. Religion.

Take a basic class on forming an intellectual argument, to be honest, because you're dragging this down to the level of fundamentalist Christians and tinfoil hatters.

To state the issue a bit more clearly.

Incursions are, for the most part, pure ISK. 80-120mil of it per hour.

There has never been a PURE ISK source, in highsec, like this before. You can blitz level 4's for 60-80mil an hour, but you're blitzing for LP which has a built in ISK / materials / tags sink.

Fundamentally, the best way of earning ISK in highsec has increased by something like 50% in terms of hourly income AND that income is not tethered to an ISK sink.

That changes things.

QFT.

Check out market trends on PLEX since the introduction of incursions as well. Though the recent spike in price could be attributed to butthurt incursionbears not wanting to grind back up to the shiny battleship SKNK. just turned into space glitter. You may say "you don't have that kind of impact" but we've seen 2 month old players time and time again go back to jita and buy a brand new mach/nightmare etc minutes after crying to us about how they just got the ship and we ruined them for life. I wonder how they make up the 1b isk needed to purchase a new shiny ship so fast. The fact that they tell us they are ruined AFTER they are destroyed tells me that they are PLEXing up. SKNK. (and probably CCP) are perfectly OK with this.

The Mittani told me that he's more concerned with L4 mission bots than Incursion income, indicating that he believes they inject more cash into the system than Incursions. I won't argue that as there aren't any real numbers, but I'd certainly agree that mission bots should be dealt with. A dirty fix would be a captcha every 4-5 missions.

Ratting bots should be detectable enough based on their actions.

That doesn't change the fact that the incursioners claim to be putting 30+ billion isk an hour into the economy, with no comparable isk-sink to prevent inflation. If they do even half that number, that's 10 trillion isk a month being spread out across highsec PVE players who spend it on PLEX and shiny ships/mods, steadily driving prices up.

What bothers me about the isk/hour of highsec incursions is that it is equivalent to figures I was seeing working in small wormhole groups. That's really the core problem here: corporations living in nullsec wormholes make the same isk as highsec incursioners, only without the safety and without the CONSTANT availability of isk-producing activities.

You DARE misquote me. I am so outraged that would I have been a normal troll I'd have put this many exclamation marks in:

----> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <----

Here are the https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=229653#post229653 numbers

It's 36,4-38,9 billion isk an hour AT ABSOLUTELY, MEGA, FANTSTIC GIGA ULTRA PEAAAAAK TIME. Get it right before I have to chop it out in dead animal bones and spell it for you on the street. Peak time is the utter peak time of incursion runners INCLUDING the assumption of 3 highsec incursions and extreme crowdness in highsec.
Extremely, magically peak time. Estimated to last 20 hours every week.

The weekly average is so much lower!
I have done my assumptions and guesstimates. You've pointed your finger at me and said well fine.
I have given you the peak number of ISK generation in incursions. Weekly average is probably at 60-70 % of that if not lower.
Now you tell me these measly 3.8 trillion ISK generated in highsec. Is that ruining the eve market?
(Yes Floppie, I am aware that the 10 trillion ISK is "even half of that", but I am just correcting your misquote of what I calculated based on my assumptions)

Khanh'rhh. Good on you for failing at math.



How do you add up 50 % and go from 60-80 m an hour in missions to 80-120 m an hour?
And no, incursions are NOT for the most part 80-120 m an hour. By all means get a fresh unbanned alt and you try run some incursions and see if you're doing 80-120 m an hour for the most part.
And don't start talking about fleets filled with just faction battleships, because that's not "for the most part".


PS: It's so easy to blame "the ruined market and plex prices" on a small percentage of pilots. Of course it's the minority's fault.

I agree, we need to get back on topic of crushing incersioners under heel, Ammzl is a very broken record and his argument never changes