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The tutorials give the wrong impressions about the game

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Nox Solitudo
That Random Worker Ant Colony
#81 - 2013-06-25 11:39:30 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game

I've finished the tutorials, carrer and sisters of eve arc with 600,000 SP yet I find myself unable to gain enough ISK to do anything. After losing a few ships in low sec I find myself unable to even aford a cruiser and am having to grind badly paying level 2 missions and mining 6 hours a day and yet barely achieving anything. Trading seems to have been designed for (and played by) actual workers in the stock market.

Mining pays about 1m isk an hour and tier 2 missions about the same. Yet a fully ensured and equibed cruiser is going to cost up to 15m.

Really the only way to achieve anything in this game seems just to buy and sell PLEX. And I'm not paying £15+ just to able to do things in game.

No wonder most people only play this game for a month


When you're docked in station, go to the captains quarters and look at the advertisements to purchase plex, once plex has been purchased, I recommend dropping 300-1000 dollars on plex, put the plex into your cargo hold, all of them, and fly to jita. now wait outside the station, and let people know you're selling plex in local, don't dock, because it makes trading plex more difficult.


I'm not an idiot you know, I can tell that that is stupid.

Also I don't want to scam in this game. I would prefer to have some personal integrity

Also I've ground up enough money to get a mining barge (the cheap one), however I don't have enough to get the strip miners for the ship.



Hello Mr. Self_Entitled, would you be so kind to react on OTHER comments as well? Or you just ignore them because all you want is moaning?
Nox Solitudo
That Random Worker Ant Colony
#82 - 2013-06-25 11:46:21 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Lidam wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game

I've finished the tutorials, carrer and sisters of eve arc with 600,000 SP yet I find myself unable to gain enough ISK to do anything. After losing a few ships in low sec I find myself unable to even aford a cruiser and am having to grind badly paying level 2 missions and mining 6 hours a day and yet barely achieving anything. Trading seems to have been designed for (and played by) actual workers in the stock market.

Mining pays about 1m isk an hour and tier 2 missions about the same. Yet a fully ensured and equibed cruiser is going to cost up to 15m.

Really the only way to achieve anything in this game seems just to buy and sell PLEX. And I'm not paying £15+ just to able to do things in game.

No wonder most people only play this game for a month


Holy ****, the sense of entitlement coming from this post is overwhelming. If you can't achieve anything in this game, how do you explain that I'm barely 2 weeks older than you and have 1.2b from trading? I was making 40-50m a day when I was two weeks old. It's not impossible. Some other guy and I even gave you advice on the newbie forums which was pretty extensive save for telling you exactly what to buy (even there if you simply asked I could have given you a few tips).

Nothing is going to come easy in this game. But if you set goals and are willing to put actual time and effort into something, then you will go far.


Heres my general experience in trading

Spend 3m on a buy order for minerals in a system full of asteroids, take it to Jita believing I can sell it for 40 after paying 12, find I was reading the selling section by mistake. Sell the stuff to a buyers at about 13 or so, and make about 100000 profit for half and hours work. Then give up and go back to mining.


Then maybe you are doing it wrong. Have you ever thought about it, Mr. Self_Entitled?

Or do you really think players actually lie about their newbie experience? Maybe this is all one big conspiracy to get you caught into the game and then suck your soul or something. Those players are not real! OMG OMG! Is this game run by CIA+KGB? Questions, questions....

Or maybe you can get your head out of your arse, read those advices and try to fix your 1) attitude, 2) approach to the game and 3) stop trying to get to nonexistent endgame and kill nonexistent endgame bosses in nonexistent endgame ship.


I don't understand why anyone still bothers to help you, since it's absolutely clear you don't care.
Tamus Rochenko
Maya Galactic Commerce
#83 - 2013-06-25 11:53:04 UTC
At the end of the day, you have to treat EVE the same as you do with real life. Find what you are good at/interests you, and make it pay.

You say that you understand why people sub for a month. They only sub for a month because they give up.

Talk to some of the long time players here, most of them no longer pay for there subs with real money anymore and just buy plex in game with isk.

That should be your goal. But you have to work at it. EVE is fun, there's a learning curve like with anything. But it's what you make of it.

Maybe it's not for you?
Zeus Zed
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-06-25 12:44:59 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Zeus Zed wrote:
Truth be told, the "tutorials" in eve are not really tutorials in the common sense of the word, but rather "profession demos" that help you choose something to do in this game. The main thing a new player has to understand us that the FUN in the game comes a lot later, when you have all core skills to V. But a new player can not possibly know what the core skills really mean, or whether he or she should train x versus y - no matter how much reading he or she does. Also, a new player can not possibly understand how good a rifter or a megathron really is, and of course has no idea what all this clutter in the market is.
Core skills are covered by the certificate system, namely Core Capacitor, Competency, Fitting, Integrity, Navigation and Targeting, all of which list the skills required to attain various levels of achievement, basic level is good enough for newbies, although standard is the minimum recommended if you plan on sticking around. Other certificates cover more specialised things such as defence etc. If you're confused about what skills to train as a newbie, check out Tippias Newbie Skill Plan, it's aimed at creating a competent character that can effectively use cheap ships in a variety of scenarios.

Quote:
One way for CCP to fix this would be to offer pre-set skill queues for the various professions. Also CCP could do away with the zero sense naming of the various ship equipment. Most importantly, CCP should really consider giving a serious sp boost in all newbie pilots, at least k only for the core flying skills (nav, mech, electronics).
Pre set skill queues are a terrible idea, the joy of Eve is finding your own path, not blindly following the highway. The module naming at least follows a pattern now, many of us hated it when CCP changed the names to the new schema but they make more sense than they used to in many instances.

Quote:
There is obviously a major problem with new players having to wait for a long time before doing something enjoyable in this game, which kills all enthusiasm. And it's very unfair, because eve is really a fantastic game. If CCP wants to fix that problem, they have to take some action, now.
What you're suggesting is nothing new, in the past newbies got a 2x boost to training up to a certain SP limit (1.5mill or so IIRC), but we also had learning skills which were a massive time sink and each races starting attributes were different. Newbies now start off with much better character attributes and a significant head start in SP. Eve is a fantastic game because it doesn't hold your hand, and it doesn't give you goals. In many ways it's one of the last truly open ended games, because the only goals in Eve are ones that you set for yourself, here you get to write your own story as you progress towards them.


I do not object to any of that (with the exception of certs which could be made some more user-friendly). I've been playing the game for 2 years and I now begin feeling comfortable with the environment around me and start to understand the big picture.

The point of the OP was that, for a complete newbiew, with zero understanding of the mechanics and the depth of EVE, it is extremely difficult to "find his or her own way", because quite simply he or she can not possibly know what getting into mining or hauling or pirating or missioning or plexing actually means. To them, these are just words.

So, really the number one blocking point for new players is the lack of perspective. If this was a linear game (in the sense of WoW or what have you) then it would be ok - progress could be seen and measured on a day to day basis. But with EVE things are much more complex. And tutorials do very little to help solve this problem.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#85 - 2013-06-25 12:57:43 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game

I've finished the tutorials, carrer and sisters of eve arc with 600,000 SP yet I find myself unable to gain enough ISK to do anything. After losing a few ships in low sec I find myself unable to even aford a cruiser and am having to grind badly paying level 2 missions and mining 6 hours a day and yet barely achieving anything. Trading seems to have been designed for (and played by) actual workers in the stock market.

Mining pays about 1m isk an hour and tier 2 missions about the same. Yet a fully ensured and equibed cruiser is going to cost up to 15m.

Really the only way to achieve anything in this game seems just to buy and sell PLEX. And I'm not paying £15+ just to able to do things in game.

No wonder most people only play this game for a month


I haven't read the thread yet, so what I'm going to say has already been said.

Your attitude is wrong, and you are getting the results of that. you're trying to do way to much to soon, don't understand that above all EVE is a game about patience NOT instant gratification and (worst of all) you're blaming internal failure on an external cause. In other words, just about everything you can do wrong while starting out in EVE, you've just admitted to doing.

While getting ready to post this rant of yours, did you ever stop to think "gee, hundreds of thousands of people before me have successfully played this game, maybe I'm doing something wrong?". Did you ask ANYONE for help,. did you ask smart questions?

Now i'll read the thread and probably learn that the answer to all my above questions is NO lol.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#86 - 2013-06-25 13:14:05 UTC
Jimmy Morane wrote:


Yes, and there was a similar post yesterday with the guy that said you had to have all 4 and 5 levels skills to do anything in the game and that meant ccp was hamstringing him. And, also similar, that guy just kept fending off any suggestions given to him.


I think it's because some people aren't looking for answers, they want fixes ie "someone to come and make it all better" lol. And yea, people like that annoy me just as much online as they do face to face.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#87 - 2013-06-25 13:16:33 UTC
Caldari Citizen 20120308 wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game
You can.
It's just that, in EVE, you are not entitled to any kind of achievement or success — you have to actually make it happen yourself, and the game won't make it happen for you, or even help you along the way.

This design is entirely intentional.



I agree you're not entitled to achievements or success but do not agree with "the game won't make it happen for you." You pay for a service monthly which is playing an mmo and interacting with other players, and part of that service is providing players the tools necessary to become successful and the ability to obtain or furnish your own success within the confines of the game. If this wasn't the case I'm sure a ton of players would leave in mass herds elsewhere.


EVE does give you the tools. It lets you click on things (and this makes those things do.....things) and they even give you a free 5000 isk that you can turn into a fortune if you're smart.

That's all EVE needs to do for a player. The sub fee is for access, no success.
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-06-25 14:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tixam Quri
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
This dude has been complaining for a month now that he can't train Winning V.


posting in alttroll thread

Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-06-25 15:06:33 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
Knights Armament wrote:
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game

I've finished the tutorials, carrer and sisters of eve arc with 600,000 SP yet I find myself unable to gain enough ISK to do anything. After losing a few ships in low sec I find myself unable to even aford a cruiser and am having to grind badly paying level 2 missions and mining 6 hours a day and yet barely achieving anything. Trading seems to have been designed for (and played by) actual workers in the stock market.

Mining pays about 1m isk an hour and tier 2 missions about the same. Yet a fully ensured and equibed cruiser is going to cost up to 15m.

Really the only way to achieve anything in this game seems just to buy and sell PLEX. And I'm not paying £15+ just to able to do things in game.

No wonder most people only play this game for a month


When you're docked in station, go to the captains quarters and look at the advertisements to purchase plex, once plex has been purchased, I recommend dropping 300-1000 dollars on plex, put the plex into your cargo hold, all of them, and fly to jita. now wait outside the station, and let people know you're selling plex in local, don't dock, because it makes trading plex more difficult.


I'm not an idiot you know, I can tell that that is stupid.

Also I don't want to scam in this game. I would prefer to have some personal integrity

Also I've ground up enough money to get a mining barge (the cheap one), however I don't have enough to get the strip miners for the ship.


No. That is actually good advice. Meet you there.

How can you not afford to fit a Venture?

Seriously though, the part I like most about all of your trolling "nerf game pl0x" threads is that they are full of helpful people laying out exceptionally helpful and useful information.

PM me

Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
Tixam Quri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-06-25 15:12:47 UTC
Zeus Zed wrote:
Truth be told, the "tutorials" in eve are not really tutorials in the common sense of the word, but rather "profession demos" that help you choose something to do in this game. The main thing a new player has to understand us that the FUN in the game comes a lot later, when you have all core skills to V. But a new player can not possibly know what the core skills really mean, or whether he or she should train x versus y - no matter how much reading he or she does. Also, a new player can not possibly understand how good a rifter or a megathron really is, and of course has no idea what all this clutter in the market is.

One way for CCP to fix this would be to offer pre-set skill queues for the various professions. Also CCP could do away with the zero sense naming of the various ship equipment. Most importantly, CCP should really consider giving a serious sp boost in all newbie pilots, at least k only for the core flying skills (nav, mech, electronics).

There is obviously a major problem with new players having to wait for a long time before doing something enjoyable in this game, which kills all enthusiasm. And it's very unfair, because eve is really a fantastic game. If CCP wants to fix that problem, they have to take some action, now.


I really have to disagree. I'm only a month in and I find the SkillQueue minigame to be thoroughly enjoyable.

Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-06-25 15:24:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game

I've finished the tutorials, carrer and sisters of eve arc with 600,000 SP yet I find myself unable to gain enough ISK to do anything. After losing a few ships in low sec I find myself unable to even aford a cruiser and am having to grind badly paying level 2 missions and mining 6 hours a day and yet barely achieving anything. Trading seems to have been designed for (and played by) actual workers in the stock market.

Mining pays about 1m isk an hour and tier 2 missions about the same. Yet a fully ensured and equibed cruiser is going to cost up to 15m.

Really the only way to achieve anything in this game seems just to buy and sell PLEX. And I'm not paying £15+ just to able to do things in game.

No wonder most people only play this game for a month



You're already been told all the answers to your questions. But I'll give you my experience.

When I first started playing I quit after a month, came back 2 years later and became hooked.

Eve is not meant to be played alone, especially as a noob. To do so is the most boring activity you could ever hope to pay for the privilege.

Being a noob is tough. You don't know squat and you can't afford sht. With mining, it's an activity that will progressively allow you to afford your next mining ship but little else. And it completely takes your skillset into a singular direction that, unless you want to be a miner, will not serve you in any way to experience the other facets of the game. Unless your intent on being only a miner, save that for an alt.

You should get into missioning. Not only will this develop your skillset to also get into PVP, it pays more than mining and will develop your skills for higher income ratting which is by far one of the more lucrative activities in the game without having to get into industry. Not that industry doesn't pay well....it does...it's just not exciting unless you're the accountant type.

I say this from experience. I mined right until I could fly a retriever. Then a friend got me into missioning and pvp. I've never mined again and won't.

I also highly recommend joining a corp with more experienced members from whom you can learn.

Oh and um....Eve has tutorials?

Don't ban me, bro!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#92 - 2013-06-25 15:27:02 UTC
Crying (also called sobbing, weeping, wailing, whimpering, bawling, or blubbering) is the shedding of tears in response to an emotional state in humans. The act of crying has been defined as "a complex secretomotor phenomenon characterized by the shedding of tears from the lacrimal apparatus, without any irritation of the ocular structures". A related medical term is lacrimation, which also refers to non-emotional shedding of tears.

A neuronal connection between the lacrimal gland (tear duct) and the areas of the human brain involved with emotion has been established. Some scientists believe that only humans produce tears in response to emotional states while others disagree. Charles Darwin wrote in The Expression of the Emotions in Man and Animals that the keepers of Indian elephants in the London Zoo told him that their charges shed tears in sorrow.

Tears produced during emotional crying have a chemical composition which differs from other types of tears. They contain significantly greater quantities of the hormones prolactin, adrenocorticotropic hormone, Leu-enkephalin, and the elements potassium and manganese.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
bloodknight2
Revenu.Quebec
#93 - 2013-06-25 16:05:39 UTC
I must say most items in Eve cost more now than a few years ago. My first abaddon was 140m (now 240m...) and the orca was 440m (was nearly 700m a few months ago) and of course, missions (the thing most noobs do first for iskies) got nerfed a bit. So yeah, Eve is kind of harder at the moment for a noob than it was 3-4 years ago (of course, frigs and cruisers got their ass buffed a lot lately, but cost much more too).

I agree Eve isn't easy when you begin the game
Toshiro Hasegawa
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2013-06-25 16:57:45 UTC
i just made a new toon - seeded it with isk from main account .. and am training it up

day 1 frigs + basic equipment - did a few lv 1's - no issue -- but i think thats because i knew how to use my skills, ship and equipment properly .. somethign that a new player would not .

day 2 - destroyer with almost less than basic skills and equipment - tried lv2's and i had to dock up mid fight once or twice .. very inneficient in terms of time / mission. My player skill was no match the lack of SP .. will probably have to use cruiser for lv2

day 3 my plan is to get into a cruier i cant use properly and see what lv 2 are like with it .. using a t1 frig fit .. wasted but curious to see how it goes.

day 4+ once i have all the basic lv skills to basic fit a cruiser i am going to work social, connections and negotiation skills to 4/5 and see where my standing ends up .. and then either grind lv2 in a cruiser, or start the process over with BC.

I am sure i will end up in ships i cant fly right .. but i have a deep wallet to support myself and more importantly i have player skills. I dont plan on loosing anything. I wont be going anywhere near low sec. I wont be traveling around with valuables in my cargo. I will align for warp out when things are harry in a mission. I will stay away from objects so i dont get too close and end up not being able to warp out. I dont need to get insurance - as i am my own insurance .. but if you are new .. then i would buy it.

When getting into your first maj ship upgrade . i would suggest it best to have enough for the ship + insurance +fitings + extra left over. - as well as back up ships to jump right into if somethig goes wrong.

One shojuld not go to low sec unless one is confindent that a death will not have much of an impact. (i dont go to low sec - there is nothing there i want that would make up for the shame of giving some douche a kill). Stick to highsec. Mission, loot and salvage. Sellorder the good items, quicksell the rest.

If you need a leg up then join a corp - making isk is always easier with others .. even though you have to share profits - you can get more done , more safely, more quickly in groups .. and when i comes down to it you to need to mitigate risk, and increase your isk / hour income.

Eventually after you stick with it .. you will have more than enough isk to cover lsoses and still get back to making isk.




History is the study of change.

Six Six Six
Doomheim
#95 - 2013-06-25 17:08:21 UTC
Paul Otichoda wrote:
They give the impression that you can actually achieve something in this game

I've finished the tutorials, carrer and sisters of eve arc with 600,000 SP yet I find myself unable to gain enough ISK to do anything. After losing a few ships in low sec I find myself unable to even aford a cruiser and am having to grind badly paying level 2 missions and mining 6 hours a day and yet barely achieving anything. Trading seems to have been designed for (and played by) actual workers in the stock market.

Mining pays about 1m isk an hour and tier 2 missions about the same. Yet a fully ensured and equibed cruiser is going to cost up to 15m.

Really the only way to achieve anything in this game seems just to buy and sell PLEX. And I'm not paying £15+ just to able to do things in game.

No wonder most people only play this game for a month




Problem with the game is that people seem to think they need lots of skills to play the game, sure skills help but it's not like games where you can reach the highest level is a fairly short amount of time. You can buy PLEX to boost your isk, but if new I would not recommend it, as you might find yourself with more isk than you can earn and hence have no reason to do anything. Don't try to rush the game to access the higher content like you would in other MMOs in this game you'll more than likely give up on the game if you do.