These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

NPC loot underminds the mining and production professions!!

First post
Author
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#101 - 2013-06-25 04:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Okay, after reading this post I have come to the conclusion that you've got to be trolling and we're all just misguidedly continuing to feed you. The only other alternative is that you've been bumped and conned by the New Order one too many times and have finally lost your marbles. Nevertheless, I'll take your bait - as bad an idea as it may be.


I don't mine much, try again.

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Research: ...I actually laughed out loud on this one. If rats didn't drop modules, research would improve? More T1 BPOs would be researched? Do you even know the first thing about research and invention?


Who's going to build the meta 0s needed to 'fix' the broken modules/upgrade what ever it is called, gnomes fairy land? Think all those people are not going to want to research their BPOs?

Your ignorance is staggering.

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Incidentally, I know what "opportunity cost" is. Do you?


More than you do apparently.



Right, then. So judging by your replies to my post, the problem actually seems to be that you aren't very good at reading. Understood.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-06-25 04:06:51 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Right, then. So judging by your replies to my post, the problem actually seems to be that you aren't very good at reading. Understood.


Please refer to post #99 before you continue your replies about this concept.
Adunh Slavy
#103 - 2013-06-25 04:09:59 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:

Right, then. So judging by your replies to my post, the problem actually seems to be that you aren't very good at reading. Understood.



Pretty full of your self if you think I am going to waste my time with your red herrings.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#104 - 2013-06-25 04:38:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Opportunity cost is defined as:
"The loss of potential gain from other alternatives when one alternative is chosen".


This means that when I have a rat module, I have choices. I can sell it, use it or melt it into minerals. If I melt it, that costs me the ISK I could have gained by selling it as well as the ability to use it. If I sell it, that means I no longer have the opportunity to use it or convert it into minerals. If I decide to put that module onto a ship and use it, then that costs me the gains from melting it down or selling it - although in the case of "use it", I can decide to use it for a while and then melt or sell it later so the opportunity cost of using a dropped module is very low and qualifies more as "opportunity deferment".

So again, I understand very well what "opportunity cost" is. It's a concept I work with every day. Kindly stop insisting that I don't understand it simply because you have a desire to validate your position by attempting to belittle my intelligence.


With regards to Malcanis' notion of rats no longer dropping meta modules but instead dropping meta BPCs that could be used for invention: Is that in addition to or in place of standard null-meta BPCs? With BPCs dropping, no additional cost is incurred to the inventor (his costs may actually decrease) and it actually becomes feasible to store a large stack of these BPCs in a small container.

If the BPCs take the place of a null-meta BPC in invention then I would have to propose that the % bonus on a meta BPC not be as good as the bonus to research with a null-meta BPC and an actual meta item in order to prevent the null-meta BPCs from becoming less valuable and harming a market that already exists.
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics
#105 - 2013-06-25 05:28:44 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
mynnna wrote:
OP is a bit hyperbolic and/or hysterical.


But it's an interesting notion.

I am an industrialist. And the recent ore redistribution in null sec seems to have had no impact on mineral market trends. Though it may just be delayed market reaction(quite delayed) it would seem as though high end minerals are actually taking a dive. The most likely reason i can think of is because of high sec generated supply of high end minerals.

It's only been a few weeks since the expansion launched and furthermore, most of nullsec is currently at war. And on top of THAT, highsec mining is still the vast majority of mining by volume in the game... I'd have to go back and dig through Diagoras' twitter feed to find the relevant tweets, but its not like low end supply was suddenly increased by 50% or something.



Nerfing module drops would make hs mining more profitable, trit, pye and other low to mid ends are the bottle necks to production, not high ends like megacyte.

Of which high ends make up very little content min wise of a reprocessed item.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#106 - 2013-06-25 06:37:30 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
With regards to Malcanis' notion of rats no longer dropping meta modules but instead dropping meta BPCs that could be used for invention: Is that in addition to or in place of standard null-meta BPCs? With BPCs dropping, no additional cost is incurred to the inventor (his costs may actually decrease) and it actually becomes feasible to store a large stack of these BPCs in a small container.

It doesn't have to literally be a BPC, but for manufacturing purposes it would serve much the same role.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Sigras
Conglomo
#107 - 2013-06-25 06:40:03 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Now you're talking about "other professions" that are "suppressed" because of "rats dropping too many things". What other professions are suppressed, then? I'm interested to hear the list of professions that would suddenly be free to grow if rats dropped nothing but ISK and these weird "upgrade pieces" that a lot of players would be too lazy to bother with.

saying that nobody would bother with them is probably the most moronic thing ive heard today. Mission runners already loot every wreck for every piece of equipment they can get, and in fact most of them come back and salvage the missions too spending additional effort to get things out of the wrecks . . . now i wonder . . . why do they do this?

Im just under the assumption that they are selling those items to other players who manufacture them into things, or if they want to be vertically integrated, the manufacture the items themselves. So what you're saying is that mission runners would stop collecting items from wrecks to sell? especially if these items had other uses beyond just repairing.

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Mining: I think the big thing suppressing mining is the fact that it is soul-crushingly boring and really only suitable for people who are AFK, alt-tabbed, trying to manage 10 accounts at once or not actually human - that is to say, a bot. If mining were.. you know.. interesting, then I'm almost completely certain that many more people would do it. There'd be people and more competition and it would look like an actual community.

well you think wrong . . . I know several people who mine because they like it; they think it's fun. I dont really understand them because to me that isnt fun, but he actually made a game out of how many asteroid belts he could clean out in a play session. The problem was, they cant ever make enough isk to keep their accounts plexed because mining's isk/hour is terrible.

im not saying this idea is perfect, or even very good, but it definitely deserves some consideration more than *WAH WAH WAH DONT NERF MY MISSIONS!!!!111oneoneone*

in fact this could even be a bonus to mission runners and PvPers, these items could be smaller than the modules they represent because they cant be used for mineral compression. This could actually be a mission running buff.



Psst. Tier 1-3 items are mostly useless, and sold to people for pennies to be melted down. If they're replaced with upgrade parts, no-one will buy them outside of a handful of niche situations.

unless someone were to add some additional value to them . . . say allowing them to be used instead of working modules in invention . . . or maybe . . . if a module rebalance were done . . . oh wait . . . Roll
GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics
#108 - 2013-06-25 07:01:49 UTC
what the game really needs right now is to create millions of non stack able bpc's that cant be sold on market.
and only one at a time by contract
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-06-25 07:08:55 UTC
GizzyBoy wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
mynnna wrote:
OP is a bit hyperbolic and/or hysterical.


But it's an interesting notion.

I am an industrialist. And the recent ore redistribution in null sec seems to have had no impact on mineral market trends. Though it may just be delayed market reaction(quite delayed) it would seem as though high end minerals are actually taking a dive. The most likely reason i can think of is because of high sec generated supply of high end minerals.

It's only been a few weeks since the expansion launched and furthermore, most of nullsec is currently at war. And on top of THAT, highsec mining is still the vast majority of mining by volume in the game... I'd have to go back and dig through Diagoras' twitter feed to find the relevant tweets, but its not like low end supply was suddenly increased by 50% or something.



Nerfing module drops would make hs mining more profitable, trit, pye and other low to mid ends are the bottle necks to production, not high ends like megacyte.

Of which high ends make up very little content min wise of a reprocessed item.


I have no objection to this at all. Mining should be as profitable as the minerals are to mine and should not be subsidized by the activity that is supposed to be the target consumer of those minerals. But yeah, to be honest, it feels like the only bottleneck mineral now is Mexallon. It's the only thing that feels lacking in supply when i'm mining.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#110 - 2013-06-25 07:18:37 UTC
NPC loot underminds the mining and production professions!!

Just a late reminder about a typo in the title.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-06-25 07:37:25 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
NPC loot underminds the mining and production professions!!

Just a late reminder about a typo in the title.


Not sure what the typo is, but you will get to continue to look at it, and cringe!!!

bwah hahahaha
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2013-06-25 09:42:42 UTC
They've already nerfed the NPC loot while buffing the mining profession...
and here you are shortly after, whining for more.


What I'd like to see, is meta0 loot return, and the meta 1-4 loot dramatically scaled back - then add meta 1-4 BPCs as posible invention outcomes (the chance to make T2 would stay the same, but instead of T2 bpc or fail, you have some intermediate outcomes where you invent a meta BPC instead of failing completely)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#113 - 2013-06-25 12:40:58 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Now you're talking about "other professions" that are "suppressed" because of "rats dropping too many things". What other professions are suppressed, then? I'm interested to hear the list of professions that would suddenly be free to grow if rats dropped nothing but ISK and these weird "upgrade pieces" that a lot of players would be too lazy to bother with.

saying that nobody would bother with them is probably the most moronic thing ive heard today. Mission runners already loot every wreck for every piece of equipment they can get, and in fact most of them come back and salvage the missions too spending additional effort to get things out of the wrecks . . . now i wonder . . . why do they do this?

Im just under the assumption that they are selling those items to other players who manufacture them into things, or if they want to be vertically integrated, the manufacture the items themselves. So what you're saying is that mission runners would stop collecting items from wrecks to sell? especially if these items had other uses beyond just repairing.

Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Mining: I think the big thing suppressing mining is the fact that it is soul-crushingly boring and really only suitable for people who are AFK, alt-tabbed, trying to manage 10 accounts at once or not actually human - that is to say, a bot. If mining were.. you know.. interesting, then I'm almost completely certain that many more people would do it. There'd be people and more competition and it would look like an actual community.

well you think wrong . . . I know several people who mine because they like it; they think it's fun. I dont really understand them because to me that isnt fun, but he actually made a game out of how many asteroid belts he could clean out in a play session. The problem was, they cant ever make enough isk to keep their accounts plexed because mining's isk/hour is terrible.

im not saying this idea is perfect, or even very good, but it definitely deserves some consideration more than *WAH WAH WAH DONT NERF MY MISSIONS!!!!111oneoneone*

in fact this could even be a bonus to mission runners and PvPers, these items could be smaller than the modules they represent because they cant be used for mineral compression. This could actually be a mission running buff.



Psst. Tier 1-3 items are mostly useless, and sold to people for pennies to be melted down. If they're replaced with upgrade parts, no-one will buy them outside of a handful of niche situations.

unless someone were to add some additional value to them . . . say allowing them to be used instead of working modules in invention . . . or maybe . . . if a module rebalance were done . . . oh wait . . . Roll



So...one of those proposals where sweeping game changes are piled on top of sweeping game changes until the original point is buried so deeply under the other massive changes it would require that everyone forgets all about it then?
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#114 - 2013-06-25 12:59:44 UTC
I'm still trying to figure out what the issue is. Npc loot drops out of thin air. Asteroids for mining drop out of thin air. Both are equally means to purchase minerals. Mining doesn't stop you from purchasing mission loot and vice versa. To the contray miners have more time then most players to adjust orders as a side profession.

Mission loot is better then the t1 equivalent? Then purchase and trade said mission loot instead of producing the t1 item.
Minerals on the market are too expensive to produce certain items with a profit margin? Then find bargains in the mission loot market and produce from them. etc. etc. Just have to think a little out of the box and see the opportunity instead of the threat in everything.
Shereza
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-06-25 14:04:13 UTC
Johan Toralen wrote:
Just have to think a little out of the box and see the opportunity instead of the threat in everything.


Heresy! You aren't supposed to think outside of the box in a sandbox game! Cool
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#116 - 2013-06-25 14:28:38 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
NPC loot underminds the mining and production professions!!

Just a late reminder about a typo in the title.


I'm not sure what is worse:

That I didn't see that typo and begin twitching immediately,

or that I now can't stop looking at it and have begun to twitch uncontrollably.



Bonus points on the typo occurring in a sentence about mining, and still getting Undermine wrong.
Adunh Slavy
#117 - 2013-06-25 15:15:42 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
[
So again, I understand very well what "opportunity cost" is. It's a concept I work with every day. Kindly stop insisting that I don't understand it simply because you have a desire to validate your position by attempting to belittle my intelligence.[/i]



It is no surprise that the opportunity cost you cite is all about you, which is what your objections are really about, *your* mission rewards. But of course you don't care about someone else's rewards or care about the health of the game as a whole, and that is the cost you want to ignore.

The opportunity costs, as stated before, are, less people in the belts, less people manufacturing, less people doing research. Instead we have more people shooting rats, creating ISK, salvage, modules and minerals, all the while tucked safely away in their dead space pockets.

Cry and whine all you want, it can not change the fact that all of that extra stuff, dropped by rats, has a negative impact on other professions in Eve. Opportunity cost can be viewed from more than one perspective, not just yours.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt

Darth Kilth
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-06-25 15:49:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Darth Kilth
This topic has some great ideas, not from the OP mind you, but ideas by Malcanis and others are pretty decent.

The OPs main problem seems to be that he believes forcing people to mine and produce more is actually going to make it happen and more people will while in reality people will either quit the game, keep doing it despite nerfs or find something else thats more interesting.
Or maybe that's what the OP hopes as it would increase his profits.

Eitherway, Meta modules are not the source of most of the resources, dozens of bot operations are the problem, and just making mining more profitable is only going to get more botters into the game anyway.
IMHO they should remove the Meta 1 and 2 tough, nobody ever uses them.
Nick Bete
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-06-25 17:11:22 UTC
Posting in yet another nerf missions thread... Roll

"Gun mining" in missions has already been addressed. You have no hard data to back up your simple assumptions. CCP does have that data and has not deemed it necessary to make further changes.
Sigras
Conglomo
#120 - 2013-06-25 22:41:17 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Posting in yet another nerf missions thread... Roll

"Gun mining" in missions has already been addressed. You have no hard data to back up your simple assumptions. CCP does have that data and has not deemed it necessary to make further changes.

how would this in any way be a nerf to missions? if the drops were changed to upgrade modules and were allowed to be used in invention like the normal meta items are now there would be very little change at all.

And these modules could even be smaller because they couldnt be reprocessed into minerals so you dont have to worry about mineral compression. this could actually be a buff to missions . . . .