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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#701 - 2013-06-24 14:42:00 UTC
DoToo Foo wrote:
I am a wormhole resident.

There are two things that I have mixed feelings about:

Large Haulers to get only 1 high slot. (down 1). For us the Iteron Mark V has been the pinnacle of wormhole hauling. Easy on the wormholes, large storage, a cloak and a probe if you get stuck. It has been the only ship to use. The loss of that highslot means we have less fallback options; and probably means a dedicated scanning frigate per interim system (for us - generally 1). We will have 'interesting choices' that have to be made; but for us; this is a hard nerf.

The Bestower takes the crown as the largest hauler (39201m3 t1 rigs/t2 expanders/max skill) from the Iteron Mark V (38433m3 similar configuration). While the manufacturer in me rejoices; the pilot weeps. I trained Gallente Industrial 5 to have the maximum size T1 hauler. The difference is marginal (2%), but I fear I am still coming down with the beginnings of bitter vet syndrome.


I'll remind you that you haven't lost a single m^3 of cargo space from your Ity5.

That part of your post that I highlighted is the key here: when there's only one ship worth using, it's time to fix that situation.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#702 - 2013-06-24 14:49:16 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Can we drop a lowslot from all of them and give them a hardwired damage control II?


It's a core principle of EVE that people should be allowed to make bad choices.



I know, I know.

Sometimes I just wish we could force people to fit ships in a less than insane fashion though... Like the guy complaining about his mammoth with 1.2 billion in it being popped.

But you can't code round stupid.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#703 - 2013-06-24 14:54:33 UTC
Quote:
Long as we get something that can move mass amounts (between 100,000 m3 and 200,000 m3), in some-type of configuration (not a freighter, jump freighter, or Orca), that involves either the T1 ships, the Deep Space Transports, or some new transport ship, I'll be happy. i really could care less of the utility, the tank, the "special abilities". Just something that can handle the movement of a mass bulk order where a Orca or Freighter can't do, in a ship that doesn't cost a billion isk.

I could have recovered the 4 hours of moving crap I just did, because that was in no way, shape, or form, fun or enjoyable.


Hehe... I thought this was eve, not world of wait ;D

Come to think of it now, the industrial ships aren't "that industrial".
This one been burning on my tongue for a while.

Too bad the module thread has been unstickied. Right now, there seems to be the issue and/or debate on all sides about versatility, special bays etc etc. I am really starting to think it would have been best if we did have that "subsystem module" thought of an idea be brought over to the industrial ship area (and other ships);

Only that such subsystem modules come in form of High/Med/Low modules that could significantly change the ship's role. Because; we always have the same problem - we need industrial ships that can do several tasks, but without having CCP be tossing out hundreds of ships for each role.

Following that sort of ruleset where you can only fit one of such flavor into the ship; we could somewhat have a base industrial hull be fitted with the module that substantially expands cargo, OR introduces a special bay of a specific flavor (PI commoditiy cargo, ship hangar bay, etc)

Will leave it there.

Or is such too hard to imagine?

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Indalecia
#704 - 2013-06-24 15:03:39 UTC
How about making cargo expanders and rigs stacking penalized? This would help decreasing the pressure on low slots and make armor tanked industrials not silly.

Of course, the base capacity of those ships would have to be adjusted to overall keep the same cargo when fully expanded.

https://o.smium.org/ — v0.13.5 — A browser-based fitting tool and loadout sharing platform
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#705 - 2013-06-24 15:08:07 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.

    @ccp_rise
    Caleb Ayrania
    TarNec
    Invisible Exchequer
    #706 - 2013-06-24 15:09:00 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    :Awesome stuff:

    See you soon in the OP with more details
    Fly safe


    Thank you so much Rise..

    Any exciting and even potential unbalanced change is great news when you have been watching these ships for so long..

    I hope you forgive my earlier outbursts that were totally shamed and unwarranted!
    Steve Ronuken
    Fuzzwork Enterprises
    Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
    #707 - 2013-06-24 15:12:37 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jowen Datloran wrote:
    Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.


    I've said it on my blog, but I'll stick it here too:

    Give the Caldari and the Amarr the biggest general purpose bays, and the best of the other function.

    Give the Minmatar the next biggest general purpose bay.

    Give the Gallente the smallest general purpose bay, to make up for having the most flexible ship range.

    My asbestos suit is ready for the flames.

    Woo! CSM XI!

    Fuzzwork Enterprises

    Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
    Indalecia
    #708 - 2013-06-24 15:13:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Indalecia
    Taleden wrote:
    I've always hated how lazily ships warp -- even "fast" ships take 10 seconds to get off grid after they finish aligning, and another 10 seconds after appearing on grid to slowly cost to a stop. It'd be much snazzier if the transitions were more sudden. Imagine how exciting it looks when a fleet comes out of warp in other sci-fi universes, like Star Wars or even Star Trek: ships appear in the distance and close the gap in seconds, and then abruptly drop back to "normal space" speeds. Way cooler looking.



    Actually, CCP is guilty of having done this in some trailers, I'm thinking the Dominion trailer (at 2 minutes and 2m56). So they know it looks cooler. What's the reason for not changing it in the real game?

    https://o.smium.org/ — v0.13.5 — A browser-based fitting tool and loadout sharing platform
    Coriele Calec
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #709 - 2013-06-24 15:13:44 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    So, whats the plan? Although I am a bit nervous about backlash coming from the other direction, I want to take your feedback and try to do something that makes you guys more excited. As far as I can tell, there's a few common concerns/desires that you're hoping for with these ships:

  • Make them all useful
  • Make them as different from each other as possible
  • Add new function/purpose where possible

    • Most of these could be said in different ways, but essentially it seems that in-so-far as balance allows, you want more niche applications, more character, and more differentiation. To me this seems reasonable, as long as it doesn't obligate people people to cross train for very basic needs. So, here's what we're looking at doing to address these points:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.
  • More separation between the two basic hauler types - I want to achieve this through several means including giving the faster haulers better warp time (up to 6au/tick instead of 4.5au/tick), taking a mid slot away from the cargo focused versions to highlight the tank on the others (this will partly be counter-acted by giving back the second high to the cargo versions), along with other small changes to make some of the tankier haulers stand out a bit more.
  • More quirkiness overall - I won't go into specifics right now, and it won't be anything extremely drastic, but I want to try and get each ship within a role set apart from the others as much as possible to avoid any feeling of homogenization (though I still feel that the very simplistic hauling system doesn't provide a lot of room for variation that wouldn't severely handicap some ships).
    • Sounds great!

    And if you get any grief internally about cross-training, remind them that 1-3 of the racial industrials skills are quick to train, and 4-5 are already in the territory of speciality/niche needs because of being longer than the training time of the Orca, as well as not being prereqs for it.
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #710 - 2013-06-24 15:15:03 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys

    I spent most of the weekend going over feedback and talking about this issue with a lot of different folks (CSM, Devs, and random folks from the community via stream chats or private convos), and I want to touch base with you about where I'm at.

    First, I want to dispel any ideas about the level of investment in this project by myself or anyone else here. Like any other part of the game, we want this to be as good as it can be. The rebalance in the OP was not the result of some lazy afternoon where we dismissively decided what to do. It was the result of a fairly lengthy process of negotiating within the balance team about what industrial balance should really consist of. We started with fairly lofty ideas and slowly backed into a more conservative solution, both because of concerns about equality relating to the extra industrials and also because of knowing that more high level industry work was coming down the pipe that could impact our needs in the near future. Moral of the story: we care about this a lot, and want to do it right.

    So, whats the plan? Although I am a bit nervous about backlash coming from the other direction, I want to take your feedback and try to do something that makes you guys more excited. As far as I can tell, there's a few common concerns/desires that you're hoping for with these ships:

  • Make them all useful
  • Make them as different from each other as possible
  • Add new function/purpose where possible

    • Most of these could be said in different ways, but essentially it seems that in-so-far as balance allows, you want more niche applications, more character, and more differentiation. To me this seems reasonable, as long as it doesn't obligate people people to cross train for very basic needs. So, here's what we're looking at doing to address these points:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.
  • More separation between the two basic hauler types - I want to achieve this through several means including giving the faster haulers better warp time (up to 6au/tick instead of 4.5au/tick), taking a mid slot away from the cargo focused versions to highlight the tank on the others (this will partly be counter-acted by giving back the second high to the cargo versions), along with other small changes to make some of the tankier haulers stand out a bit more.
  • More quirkiness overall - I won't go into specifics right now, and it won't be anything extremely drastic, but I want to try and get each ship within a role set apart from the others as much as possible to avoid any feeling of homogenization (though I still feel that the very simplistic hauling system doesn't provide a lot of room for variation that wouldn't severely handicap some ships).

    • I'll post again within the next couple days with details, but until then I hope this will do. Finally, I want to say that I really appreciate all the feedback that was given in a polite and constructive manner, both from the CSM and the community as a whole. I hope this change will help to build some faith in our ability to take that feedback into account and make good adjustments for you guys. (I also hope it doesn't make you feel like any time you make a 30 page thread I'll do whatever you say =)

    See you soon in the OP with more details
    Fly safe
    Thank you! Thank you so much for your commitment to this line, and for listening to feedback from this thread!

    I personally appreciate all the time you guys put into this game and its development. I don't know what the changes will be, but given your "three tenets" in the middle of the response, I am hopeful that ALL of the T1 Industrials will be exciting to pilot on their own right, and I am looking forward to seeing what you and your team come up with!

    Thank you again!

    Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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    Desiderya
    Blue Canary
    Watch This
    #711 - 2013-06-24 15:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
    CCP Rise wrote:


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.



    What about introducing versions for Caldari/Amarr that are a mere modification of the paintjob on the hulls? Just some details, and not as severe as faction or T2 overhauls?

    Edit: Quirky idea: Small corporate hangar bay and a dedicated 'Ammo Bay' for the bomb truck that can redistribute ammo without the hassle of dropping cans.

    Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
    Malcanis
    Vanishing Point.
    The Initiative.
    #712 - 2013-06-24 15:16:59 UTC
    Nagarythe Tinurandir wrote:
    Michael Harari wrote:
    CCP Rise wrote:
    (up to 6au/tick instead of 4.5au/tick)


    Because warp speed doesnt affect warp acceleration, i would make the difference even bigger.


    i still hope warp-acceleration will be a ship-attribute at some point...


    Apparently it's surprisingly difficult to do this.

    "Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

    Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
    Rees Noturana
    Red Rock Mining Company
    #713 - 2013-06-24 15:17:46 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jowen Datloran wrote:
    Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.


    Better to have gaps in the other races that can be filled in over time than to settle for a bland rebalancing just to remain "equal". This will give CCP the chance to introduce a new hauler to much fanfare.

    Please consider a built-in warp strength bonus to the cheap blockade runner, like you have with the Venture right now. It can't fit a covert cloak and will be caught by real camps but will encourage more low-sec activity.

    _ _
    Maximus Andendare
    Stimulus
    Rote Kapelle
    #714 - 2013-06-24 15:27:12 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jowen Datloran wrote:
    Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.
    I think the point he is getting at, and this will of course depend on how the rebalance ultimately shapes out, is that the alternative isn't just another ECM boat of another race. If you want a powerful ECM boat, you must train Caldari.

    Similarly, with Industrials, if one boat--the Iteron Mk II, for example--as a PI hold, then I must train Gallente to use it. Or if the Caldari boats have superior firepower/tank, then I must train them for that. Or if Minmatar travel at 6 AU/s vs Gallente at 3 AU/s or Amarr have largest hold, etc. In each case, if I want something, then I must train into that respective ship line to get it. Every ship can have its own flavor, and make the Caldari and Amarr lines, having only two ships, attractive in some fashion; provide some edge that the others don't. (I am still personally of the opinion that you should take the Bustard hull, skin it in T1, and make a Badger Mk. III.)

    Let's not forget, too, that we're not talking about battleship training times here. Every Industrial can be trained with just Spaceship Command III, which every new character starts with. So its a matter of a couple of hours to be proficient in literally all the Industrials--a much faster train from going from missiles (and supports) to lasers (and supports), as in your example.

    Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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    GizzyBoy
    I N E X T R E M I S
    Tactical Narcotics Team
    #715 - 2013-06-24 15:34:15 UTC
    I want my module that fudges and fakes cargo scan reports already.

    I want it to be possible to appear like I have officer mods or valuable cargo

    I want mods or ship ability's that allow me to appear to have higher faction standings in areas I currently don't.

    I want self destructing cargo bays, you can scuttle ships at sea,

    I want a ore ship that holds 200k-350km3 and has a 950k m'3 sma for hauling fitted ships and equipment
    Vincent Athena
    Photosynth
    #716 - 2013-06-24 15:43:09 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Jowen Datloran wrote:
    Thank you for listening to the feedback, Rise. Much appreciated.
    CCP Rise wrote:

  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • This is as much an issue as people having to train Caldari ship skills if they want to fly a powerful ECM or missile boat.


    People keep saying this but it is simply not true. It would be if there was a counterpart for the other races. If you don't want to train missiles, its okay because you can train lasers. In this case, there is no option for Caldari or Amarr to counter balance, even if it was a different bay.

    The easiest way to not have race favoritism is to add ships. Like a "Hoarder II" that has a different special bay than the Hoarder. It would use the same model as the current Hoarder until Art can get to fixing it.

    Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

    Frozen fanfiction
    Deornoth Drake
    Vandeo
    #717 - 2013-06-24 15:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Deornoth Drake
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hey guys
    snip...
    We started with fairly lofty ideas and slowly backed into a more conservative solution, both because of concerns about equality relating to the extra industrials and also because of knowing that more high level industry work was coming down the pipe that could impact our needs in the near future.
    ... snip ...
  • Special purpose bays - This will be for Hoarder, Iteron Mark II, III, and IV. We wanted to do this originally, but held back because of concerns about racial inequality. Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling.

    • ... snip


    1) More details about "more high level industry work was coming down the pipe" are very welcome!
    2) To avoid that "Based on feedback I'm now hoping you guys will be fine with this inequality, as long as it isn't so favored towards Gallente that no one would ever train another race for hauling." let the haulers with the special bays require the ORE Industrial skill instead of the Gallente one :D
    Teshania
    Aliastra
    Gallente Federation
    #718 - 2013-06-24 15:54:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Teshania
    I welcome changes to the Indy side of the ships, pretty much all of the sub-caps have been touched at this point, so why not some love in this area.

    I would like to see rebalance arcoss the T1 and some added to the races where they have no choices, but still keep each race unique to its own cup of tea.

    I just hope in the end i'm not forced to retrain into another race to accomplish my goals. But rather have choices within the race i'm flying

    We need a Bounty Button on the Forums
    Serith Ellecon
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #719 - 2013-06-24 15:55:28 UTC
    With every industrial available at level 1 in the appropriate racial skill, it will take under 2 hours for a new pilot to have all the racial haulers at their command. Using some of the "extra" Minmatar and Gallente hulls for specialist jobs isn't a big concern, really. It's only a problem for people who are heavily invested in the Itty5 is best thing, or RP players. And I dare say that for the RP crowd it's a small problem, because complaining is Rp, right?

    Inappropriate signature added.  CCP Notarealdev.
    Xaarous
    Happy Endings.
    #720 - 2013-06-24 16:00:57 UTC
    Maybe the "extra" hulls should move to a race-less "transport" skill line, like the mining ships have moved to the "ORE" corporation and have no racial requirement.