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Unintended Genetic Discrimination? EVE's Color Blind.

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Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#21 - 2013-06-24 04:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I'm not sure I understand what all the outrage, trolling and general ... immaturity, I guess(?) is about, but this seems like a perfectly legitimate and reasonable thing. Color-blindness and general disability isn't what EVE's mantra of "Adapt or Die" is referring to, and being able to adapt to something doesn't mean a more accessible alternative shouldn't be provided if it's simple and reasonable to do.

+1 from me.

Also, to the troll who's trolling about "being blind", there is in fact at least one person who does play EVE while blind. Something to do with screen readers, as I recall. They don't get into complex gameplay, but they're still able to play.
Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#22 - 2013-06-24 04:38:42 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I'm not sure I understand what all the outrage, trolling and general ... immaturity, I guess(?) is about, but this seems like a perfectly legitimate and reasonable thing. Color-blindness and general disability isn't what EVE's mantra of "Adapt or Die" is referring to, and being able to adapt to something doesn't mean a more accessible alternative shouldn't be provided if it's simple and reasonable to do.

+1 from me.

Also, to the troll who's trolling about "being blind", there is in fact at least one person who does play EVE while blind. Something to do with screen readers, as I recall. They don't get into complex gameplay, but they're still able to play.

It's about self appointed do gooders who feel its their right to go into a blind man's house and re-arrange all his furniture and demand a thank you as he falls over everything becuase it's no longer where it used to be.
It's about people like myself with certain abnormalities who've adapted to the world around them, instead of crying discrimination becuase the world won't bend to them.

Don't move my damn furniture...and get off my orange lawn!
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2013-06-24 04:53:36 UTC
Why not just add a "colorblind" mode so it doesn't ruin it for the people who aren't so unfortunate

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#24 - 2013-06-24 05:02:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Nobody's "moving your damn furniture". You either ignored or missed the part where OP said it should be an option. It's about presenting the ability for someone else to move their furniture around if they want to. Maybe you missed the color-blind people in here who voiced support for OP's suggestion before the trolling started.

Excellent, you've adapted successfully to your disability. That still doesn't give you the right to say "screw you" when someone else proposes adding the option for other people to change their interface around in a way that might help them do the same.

Also, nobody's declaring it's "their right" or "demanding a thank you". It's a suggestion. Try to be less oversensitive and indignant, please.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#25 - 2013-06-24 06:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jerick Ludhowe
MaRU2760 133 wrote:


It's not a troll. It is a legitimate issue. I am red/green color blind. I don't even know what I am missing there, but I do know that it very difficult for me to tell the yellow symbol on the overview from the white ones. Consequently I have to check both the overview and the rout, in many cases to keep from getting lost. That is only one of the problems I have. Would you think it was a troll if you had the same problem?


When the word "discrimination" is in the thread title in regard's to some players being color blind it's most certainly a troll thread.

There is 100% no discrimination going on with the choice of colors used in the ui, regardless if it's "unintentional" or not... That's like saying it's discrimination against the wheelchair bound that I don't have a ramp to my house...

While the motive of the ops post is good the manner in which it was delivered came off as extremely whiny... Lack of CB support is not discrimination however it is something that should be changed.
Alara IonStorm
#26 - 2013-06-24 06:54:28 UTC
TheButcherPete wrote:
Why not just add a "colorblind" mode so it doesn't ruin it for the people who aren't so unfortunate

That is exactly what he wants to do. He wants an options that flips certain colors that certain people have trouble seeing around.

So there is EVE color standard that we would play. Then there is an option that changes colors that can be better seen by those who have trouble.

I am not color blind so would simply keep my settings as is.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-06-24 07:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Joan Greywind wrote:
It is a waste of dev's time. Guess EVE is the perfect game for me.


Except it takes no time at all. Photoshop: View -> Proof Setup -> tick Color Blindness. You display now shows what the most common color blind people see, from here on out, it's easy to fix the entire UI's graphics within minutes.

Alara IonStorm wrote:
TheButcherPete wrote:
Why not just add a "colorblind" mode so it doesn't ruin it for the people who aren't so unfortunate

That is exactly what he wants to do. He wants an options that flips certain colors that certain people have trouble seeing around.

So there is EVE color standard that we would play. Then there is an option that changes colors that can be better seen by those who have trouble.

I am not color blind so would simply keep my settings as is.


Frankly, even this is generally not required, as long as the colors are distinct enough. For instance, if one is dark and the other is light, most color blind people will see the difference, even though they won't be able to differentiate between the individual colors.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#28 - 2013-06-24 07:23:11 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:


Except it takes no time at all. Photoshop: View -> Proof Setup -> tick Color Blindness. You display now shows what the most common color blind people see, from here on out, it's easy to fix the entire UI's graphics within minutes.



Almost as easy as porting high res textures that already exist to the community via an optional download...

What I'm getting at is that even the easiest tasks are overly complicated/drawn out by ccp. What would probably take any of us with a modest amount of graphic design know how a couple hours will end up taking ccp months. It's just how it is sadly.
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-06-24 07:27:34 UTC
This is just one of those settings which should've been easy to change but they're probably not. Maybe you think that the change is easy, since that would be just a change of color profile but no ... The colors are probably hard-coded and they have no way to change colors as you want.

One would expect that it's possible to create color templates and apply them to any text which can be colored but yeah ... Just like the other topic (~ more than 100 fits) which should be easily changeable but there's no response what-so-ever. I support the OP with this request. But in addition to it: expand the idea in a way that user can create/change color profiles. It's probably bit more complex, but whatever. Just adding a suggestion. Let the current color scheme as 'default'. I like the colors how they are now, and they should not get removed or changed.
Mark Androcius
#30 - 2013-06-24 08:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mark Androcius
Please CCP, also keep in mind the people without hands, people who are deaf, people who can't speak, people who are partially paralyzed, people who have down syndrome, people who....... you get the picture.


The color blind, the reason why American traffic signs say walk/don't walk instead of just green and red.
Yet at the same time, THEY ARE STILL GREEN AND RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I get it, you are color blind, it is not ideal for you, you'll have to do some more reading and paying more attention to text in stead of colors.
Please stop asking for stuff that works great for the majority, to change for a MIGHTILY small minority.
Mark Androcius
#31 - 2013-06-24 08:30:49 UTC
imbaRabbit wrote:
This is just one of those settings which should've been easy to change but they're probably not. Maybe you think that the change is easy, since that would be just a change of color profile but no ... The colors are probably hard-coded and they have no way to change colors as you want.

One would expect that it's possible to create color templates and apply them to any text which can be colored but yeah ... Just like the other topic (~ more than 100 fits) which should be easily changeable but there's no response what-so-ever. I support the OP with this request. But in addition to it: expand the idea in a way that user can create/change color profiles. It's probably bit more complex, but whatever. Just adding a suggestion. Let the current color scheme as 'default'. I like the colors how they are now, and they should not get removed or changed.



While your idea isn't weird at all. adding more "modifiable" stuff to the game, like for example color templates, will increase database size, load times and a host of other stuff.

Color blindness is a huge deficiency i know, but it simply can not be suggested that just for a % of the eve poplation, we should have color templates for all.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#32 - 2013-06-24 09:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Joan Greywind wrote:
It is a waste of dev's time. Guess EVE is the perfect game for me.


Except it takes no time at all. Photoshop: View -> Proof Setup -> tick Color Blindness. You display now shows what the most common color blind people see, from here on out, it's easy to fix the entire UI's graphics within minutes.


As for programming, text is generally printed by a function, not as a static image. This function generally got a variable for text colour, so you just need to add a offset if you switch the option on, very simple stuff from the programming pov.

So, while I am not Color blind, I think it is a good idea to give people that are a walk around for the issue.

Jerick Ludhowe wrote:

What I'm getting at is that even the easiest tasks are overly complicated/drawn out by ccp. What would probably take any of us with a modest amount of graphic design know how a couple hours will end up taking ccp months. It's just how it is sadly.


While I in no way want to defend CCP, and I am pretty sure things could go better there, there is a massive difference if you do something for a couple of hours and work on a pet project or in a work environment with milestones, QA, bug fixes, lists you have to work down, code testing and meetings/team coordination overhead. This is the reason why so many free software projects fail, not because you can't do awesome stuff really quick, but because that awesome stuff is just a very small bit of what you do and once you sit there with multiple people doing awesome stuff you quickly end up in a situation where nothing fits together, because there was no coordination and nobody that did puzzle all pieces together at the end.

In the end you still can say, "sorry I am bad" on internet spaceship forums if things are not done right. If you get paid for that, got a full load of work to do, can't simply go back because you are already working on the next thing and have to defend your work before your boss/team members, it is a bit of a different thing altogether.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-06-24 09:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: imbaRabbit
Mark Androcius wrote:
imbaRabbit wrote:
This is just one of those settings which should've been easy to change but they're probably not. Maybe you think that the change is easy, since that would be just a change of color profile but no ... The colors are probably hard-coded and they have no way to change colors as you want.

One would expect that it's possible to create color templates and apply them to any text which can be colored but yeah ... Just like the other topic (~ more than 100 fits) which should be easily changeable but there's no response what-so-ever. I support the OP with this request. But in addition to it: expand the idea in a way that user can create/change color profiles. It's probably bit more complex, but whatever. Just adding a suggestion. Let the current color scheme as 'default'. I like the colors how they are now, and they should not get removed or changed.



While your idea isn't weird at all. adding more "modifiable" stuff to the game, like for example color templates, will increase database size, load times and a host of other stuff.

Color blindness is a huge deficiency i know, but it simply can not be suggested that just for a % of the eve poplation, we should have color templates for all.


What are you talking about? What kind of database size? The files can be saved in configuration (*.txt) which would not affect anything. What kind of hosting for other size?

Place the configuration file on client side. Place the default values within the code (hard-coded template) in case that someone is messing up with the configuration file and it has errors. I don't see how can that increase anything else server-side. By implementing the color template, you should not feel anything at all (performance-wise).

EDIT: Also, some users would maybe like to add their custom colors to the interface ... so, I'm not aiming only for those with color-blindness.
Mark Androcius
#34 - 2013-06-24 09:42:42 UTC
imbaRabbit wrote:
What are you talking about? What kind of database size? The files can be saved in configuration (*.txt) which would not affect anything. What kind of hosting for other size?

Place the configuration file on client side. Place the default values within the code (hard-coded template) in case that someone is messing up with the configuration file and it has errors. I don't see how can that increase anything else server-side. By implementing the color template, you should not feel anything at all (performance-wise).

EDIT: Also, some users would maybe like to add their custom colors to the interface ... so, I'm not aiming only for those with color-blindness.



Ah, so you want them to completely modify their entire code.
You do know that, things like these effect many aspects of the game and therefore many files will need to be updated to suit to this modability.

Also... a *.txt file, you obviously aren't a programmer and if you are, you should punish yourself.
It is true though, they could just add them to our existing client-side configuration files, but again, this would require changes to hundreds if not thousands of code files.

Do you really want CCP to spend a heap of time, effort and money on something only a % of the player base wants/"needs"?.
Alara IonStorm
#35 - 2013-06-24 09:45:14 UTC
Mark Androcius wrote:
Please CCP, also keep in mind the people without hands, people who are deaf, people who can't speak, people who are partially paralyzed, people who have down syndrome, people who....... you get the picture.

If CCP could help those people enjoy the game better simply by modifying the text I sure as hell would be for it. This argument is basically they should not go a little out of the way to improve one groups gameplay because it is much harder to go out of the way for people who have more serious conditions.

That just doesn't hold water when all that needs to be done is switch the text color.
Mark Androcius wrote:

Color blindness is a huge deficiency i know, but it simply can not be suggested that just for a % of the eve poplation, we should have color templates for all.

Absolutely it can be suggested, absolutely.

They modify the UI for hundreds of groups of people. Only the hard core EVE'ers do everything in this game. They take steps to make the UI and graphics better for Moon Miners, PI'ers, People who run POS's, Manufactures, PvP'ers, Wormholers, Miners, Newbies, Old'es, Station Environments, Ship and Space Graphics, Mission Texts, Explorers, Incursioners , Weapons Graphics, Icons, Text... Ect.

You name it they've improved it at some point for their players knowing that in some cases only a few will take advantage of it and only a few of those will really care that they have improved. Making the game better for a small % keeps them playing and when all those small % add up it becomes big % of players.

Simply put if modifying the text makes it easier for a group of people to play and it isn't hard to do then it is the smart thing to do. If they can make chooseable templates for everyone else all the better, but it can absolutely be suggested that this change is good for the game.
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-06-24 09:49:21 UTC  |  Edited by: imbaRabbit
Mark Androcius wrote:

Also... a *.txt file, you obviously aren't a programmer and if you are, you should punish yourself.
It is true though, they could just add them to our existing client-side configuration files, but again, this would require changes to hundreds if not thousands of code files.


What do you have against the *.txt file? .json is as well just a freaking *.txt file, no?

And it's not like I want anything. When I would wish for something, that would be the insight in the code and application to see how did they create it.

If you think that it's changing hundreds, if not thousands of code files then you should punish yourself?

EDIT: This is just another feature and idea from which some could get profit. If it doesn't affect you, then sorry. But we can see senseless topics get open all the time (e.g. AFK cloaking) ... I think this feature is much more valid request than many other out there.
Mark Androcius
#37 - 2013-06-24 09:53:15 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Mark Androcius wrote:
Please CCP, also keep in mind the people without hands, people who are deaf, people who can't speak, people who are partially paralyzed, people who have down syndrome, people who....... you get the picture.

If CCP could help those people enjoy the game better simply by modifying the text I sure as hell would be for it. This argument is basically they should not go a little out of the way to improve one groups gameplay because it is much harder to go out of the way for people who have more serious conditions.

That just doesn't hold water when all that needs to be done is switch the text color.
Mark Androcius wrote:

Color blindness is a huge deficiency i know, but it simply can not be suggested that just for a % of the eve poplation, we should have color templates for all.

Absolutely it can be suggested, absolutely.

They modify the UI for hundreds of groups of people. Only the hard core EVE'ers do everything in this game. They take steps to make the UI and graphics better for Moon Miners, PI'ers, People who run POS's, Manufactures, PvP'ers, Wormholers, Miners, Newbies, Old'es, Station Environments, Ship and Space Graphics, Mission Texts, Explorers, Incursioners , Weapons Graphics, Icons, Text... Ect.

You name it they've improved it at some point for their players knowing that in some cases only a few will take advantage of it and only a few of those will really care that they have improved. Making the game better for a small % keeps them playing and when all those small % add up it becomes big % of players.

Simply put if modifying the text makes it easier for a group of people to play and it isn't hard to do then it is the smart thing to do. If they can make chooseable templates for everyone else all the better, but it can absolutely be suggested that this change is good for the game.



You are missing the point, it is actually not an easy task,it is a hard task.

As for the examples of thing CCP did change, those are examples of things CCP wants people to be more attracted to, so more people will do them, increasing the odds for conflict and such ( more people wanting to mine moons, means more people willing to kill competition for just 1 example ).
David Kir
Hotbirds
#38 - 2013-06-24 09:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: David Kir
Mark Androcius wrote:
Please CCP, also keep in mind the people without hands, people who are deaf, people who can't speak, people who are partially paralyzed, people who have down syndrome, people who....... you get the picture.


The color blind, the reason why American traffic signs say walk/don't walk instead of just green and red.
Yet at the same time, THEY ARE STILL GREEN AND RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I get it, you are color blind, it is not ideal for you, you'll have to do some more reading and paying more attention to text in stead of colors.
Please stop asking for stuff that works great for the majority, to change for a MIGHTILY small minority.


They might be "GREEN UND RED!!!ONE111!!!", but eve definitely lacks the "walk/don't walk" option.

Friends are like cows: if you eat them, they die.

Mark Androcius
#39 - 2013-06-24 09:59:44 UTC
imbaRabbit wrote:
What do you have against the *.txt file? .json is as well just a freaking *.txt file, no?

And it's not like I want anything. When I would wish for something, that would be the insight in the code and application to see how did they create it.

If you think that it's changing hundreds, if not thousands of code files then you should punish yourself?

EDIT: This is just another feature and idea from which some could get profit. If it doesn't affect you, then sorry. But we can see senseless topics get open all the time (e.g. AFK cloaking) ... I think this feature is much more valid request than many other out there.



You'd have to write a text reader recognizing tags and stuff like that, this while there are xml readers readily available and in fact already implemented into the game.

Right now, many things are hard-coded in ( while text might be coming from database ).
The code will say something like ( in easier terms ) get x text from object y in database q and print it here.
What CCP would have to change is the following ( again massively simplified ) get r color for z element from t xml settings file, get x text from object y in database q and print it here.

Again, massively oversimplified, but you do spot the difference right?
Now, download the source-code for a game called Jagged Alliance 2 ( it is freely available ), notice how relatively small it is compared to eve and then how many code files it has, now imagine what eve would be like.
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-06-24 10:08:37 UTC  |  Edited by: imbaRabbit
Mark Androcius wrote:

You'd have to write a text reader recognizing tags and stuff like that, this while there are xml readers readily available and in fact already implemented into the game.

Right now, many things are hard-coded in ( while text might be coming from database ).
The code will say something like ( in easier terms ) get x text from object y in database q and print it here.
What CCP would have to change is the following ( again massively simplified ) get r color for z element from t xml settings file, get x text from object y in database q and print it here.

Again, massively oversimplified, but you do spot the difference right?
Now, download the source-code for a game called Jagged Alliance 2 ( it is freely available ), notice how relatively small it is compared to eve and then how many code files it has, now imagine what eve would be like.


And XML is not text? It does not matter which format they're using. I've written *.txt as generalization because I have no clue what they might be or might not be using. The advantage from XML is that you can write a Schema and block illegal files. Anyway, I do hope they're not attacking their own database with silly requests such as 'text(#).getColor()'.

I don't want to imagine how stuff works there. I would just like to have an answer which discusses the topic. E.g.

We can't change that easily because our code is based on stuff what we've been creating since 2003. On top of that, we have never thought about modularity in such manner and that's why your request is probably not going to get in the game before we manage to fix other MORE IMPORTANT issues.

That's all. Just some way to communicate. You know - take a day in the week where you will pass the "new" ideas and features which have never been discussed. I don't want to speculate, I don't want to guess and I don't want to compare something what I don't see with something what is out there.

EDIT: Moderators should close 'duplicated' topics. CCP should answer on topics like these since we can just guess around. Once when CCP answers, everyone will be happy. No need for speculation, no need for discussions, etc.

I understand what you're trying to say, but do you have any clue how EvE code looks like?
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