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Capital weapon systems still require large weapon systems to 5.

Author
Nix Anteris
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-06-22 08:04:29 UTC
With the recent ship skill changes, it made it far easier to cross train into other factions capital hulls by making them depend on a common set of skills, and lowering the racial battleship requirements.

The same has always been true of weapon systems up to battleship. Med guns require small guns 3, large guns require med guns 3. However capital guns require large guns at 5.

So for someone with perfect gunnery support, the extra 30+ days required training a skill that will not be used is an inconvenience. It would be nice if requirements for T1 weapons were uniform throughout their sizes.

I'm wondering if this was considered and left as-is during the ship balancing, or was overlooked, or I am missing something that makes it a terrible idea to reduce the requirement of cap weapon systems to require large weapon systems at 3.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#2 - 2013-06-22 09:14:09 UTC
they should've never reduced cap skill requirements in the first line.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2013-06-22 09:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Danika Princip
Robert Caldera wrote:
they should've never reduced cap skill requirements in the first line.



They didn't, they just changed the timesink to skills you'll actually use as a cap pilot.

@OP, Why should caps be easier to fly?
XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2013-06-22 10:22:01 UTC
I agree with this. Large gun skills have no bearing on dreads and as with the battleship skill, should not require V to use.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#5 - 2013-06-22 11:02:41 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

They didn't, they just changed the timesink to skills you'll actually use as a cap pilot.

@OP, Why should caps be easier to fly?


so, removing a skill as timesink you dont need to train for a capital now is not lowering the entry barrier?
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-06-22 11:23:44 UTC
If they add other time sinks, then yes

Those time sinks are useful, but not required.

The problem is, as I see it, those time sinks (like jump drive operation) mean that there is basically no point in having the lvl 1-3 skills for jump drive operation, as you can't even use jump drives until you get a capital, and you cant get a capital until you've skilled jump drive up.

Lets say I made a module that required skill X to lvl 5
Skill levels 1-4 don't allow you to do anything.... why not make the module require skill X to lvl 1, and then change the base stats and bonus per level
Nix Anteris
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2013-06-22 11:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nix Anteris
Danika Princip wrote:
Robert Caldera wrote:
they should've never reduced cap skill requirements in the first line.



They didn't, they just changed the timesink to skills you'll actually use as a cap pilot.

@OP, Why should caps be easier to fly?


It's not making them "easier to fly". It's about relevant skills being relevant.

If you want to look at it another way. Why not make medium guns require small guns 5? and large guns require medium guns 5? That's an equally acceptable solution. I'm really just asking for uniformity in skills that are basically the same, just +/- 1 size.

When battleship 5 was required for caps large guns 5 also kind of made sense. It was about being a focused BS pilot first. Now you don't need to be a focused BS pilot, so why keep this requirement too?

Verity Sovereign wrote:
If they add other time sinks, then yes


Also fine by me as long as the replacement time sink is shared between all dreadnaughts.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#8 - 2013-06-22 14:20:32 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:



They didn't, they just changed the timesink to skills you'll actually use as a cap pilot.



WTF? this is a troll right?
Omnathious Deninard
Ministry of Silly Walks.
The Gurlstas Associates
#9 - 2013-06-22 16:21:57 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



They didn't, they just changed the timesink to skills you'll actually use as a cap pilot.



WTF? this is a troll right?

Carriers use to require racial BS V now they require it to 3 but have about 40 days worth of jump skills that are required. The time investment is still there it is just in different skills.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-06-22 22:20:31 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:



They didn't, they just changed the timesink to skills you'll actually use as a cap pilot.



WTF? this is a troll right?



I'm a dread pilot. I have all my jump skills already. If I want to fly a moros, it's now about an hour of training instead of a month. However, my alt is not a cap pilot and does not have any jump skills. it'll take her just as long to get into her first cap as it took me.

Or do you mean that cap pilots won't actually use jump skills, but would use BS V?
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Ixian Machines
#11 - 2013-06-22 22:44:34 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
*snip*
The problem is, as I see it, those time sinks (like jump drive operation) mean that there is basically no point in having the lvl 1-3 skills for jump drive operation, as you can't even use jump drives until you get a capital, and you cant get a capital until you've skilled jump drive up.
*snip*

I'd like to point to the fact that there is a subcapital jumpdrive-capable class, that's the Black Ops Battleship, thus invalidating the bigger part of your argument.

On the op: many capital modules require learning its subcapital counterpart skill to 5, including, but not limited to reppers, logistics modules and drone modules. Considering weapons are as well classified as modules I, personally, do not see any need in changing the skill requirements for the capital weapons from what they are now.
Zircon Dasher
#12 - 2013-06-22 22:47:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
*snip*
The problem is, as I see it, those time sinks (like jump drive operation) mean that there is basically no point in having the lvl 1-3 skills for jump drive operation, as you can't even use jump drives until you get a capital, and you cant get a capital until you've skilled jump drive up.
*snip*

I'd like to point to the fact that there is a subcapital jumpdrive-capable class, that's the Black Ops Battleship, thus invalidating the bigger part of your argument.


Blops require JDO V so no.... the argument still stands.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.

iskflakes
#13 - 2013-06-22 22:51:08 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
*snip*
The problem is, as I see it, those time sinks (like jump drive operation) mean that there is basically no point in having the lvl 1-3 skills for jump drive operation, as you can't even use jump drives until you get a capital, and you cant get a capital until you've skilled jump drive up.
*snip*

I'd like to point to the fact that there is a subcapital jumpdrive-capable class, that's the Black Ops Battleship, thus invalidating the bigger part of your argument.

On the op: many capital modules require learning its subcapital counterpart skill to 5, including, but not limited to reppers, logistics modules and drone modules. Considering weapons are as well classified as modules I, personally, do not see any need in changing the skill requirements for the capital weapons from what they are now.


The blackops requires jump drive operation V, so do jump freighters.

This thread isn't going anywhere, things will not be made easier for capital pilots.

-

Eija-Riitta Veitonen
Ixian Machines
#14 - 2013-06-22 23:00:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
iskflakes wrote:

The blackops requires jump drive operation V, so do jump freighters.

This thread isn't going anywhere, things will not be made easier for capital pilots.

My point wasn't about low-skill requirement, my argument was about the "Capital part", but yes, they do require JDO @ 5. But as far as any capital pilot goes, that's already a requirement for two other skills necessary for proper operation of any jump-capable ship: JFC and JDC.

By the way, freighters and j-freighters are capitals. So is, technically, Orca. Both of these classes (freighters and orcas) are contructed from capital parts instead of bare materials (as it is with all proper capitals and supercapitals) and require at least lvl 1 in "Capital Ship Construction" skill to manufacture.

But yes, things will not be made easier for capital pilots, nor they should be. Capital ships should remain a big investment both time- and isk-wise.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#15 - 2013-06-23 00:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Verity Sovereign wrote:
If they add other time sinks, then yes

Those time sinks are useful, but not required.


you dont want to fly capitals with JDC IV anyways if you're not a total scrub, so would you train it in any case, what you dont need to train anymore is BS V, which is lowering entry barrier for caps.

Nix Anteris wrote:

If you want to look at it another way. Why not make medium guns require small guns 5?

you always need next lower gun to V and spec skill to IV in order to use next sized T2 weapon - T1 guns are for noobs.

For all others: stop looking for logic in skill trees, there isnt any sometimes. Skilltree is... well a skill tree.
Why would you expect everything be perfectly streamlined and unified - the negative result of striving for consinstance would be handcuffs on dev's hands regarding balancing individual things out for what benefit?? Dont expect this.