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Give amarr lasers a short-range crystal

Author
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-06-22 08:10:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Well we all know the problem: CCP hates amarr.
Amarr have actually 3 completely worthless brawlers that can´t brawl because they haven´t enough mid slots for range control and at short range at 500m their lasers don´t hit anything.
Punisher (2 mids)
Slicer (2mids)
Retribution (2mids)

Have all the same problem: Scramweb ab fits control range, orbit at 500m and these ships don´t hit anything. Ships that can do that AND fit a td (firetail, hookbill, kestrel…) are almost invulnerable to these amarr laser boats.
Just killed a retribution in a hawk by orbiting it at 500m and wondered that I didn´t need my asb and my shield stayed at 80% because he couldn´t hit me^^ (well until I got blobbed and they got 100webs on me but I still managed it to kill that reti :P)
That is awfull. Reti can´t brawl because of lack of range control and is too slow for kiting plus vulnerable to tds.
Same with punisher. And that the slicer is worst navy frig now is super clear^^

Solution would be: GIVE AMARR A NEW SHORT RANGE LASER CRYSTAL THAT WORKS AT 500m.
If they can´t control range so give them a possibility to hit something at short range.
Many amarr laser ships are okay atm in fleets but s… in solo. It would really be a solution to fix ships like slicer (make him a viable brawler cause it got fozzienated and can´t kite any more), jokeships like punisher and retribution.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#2 - 2013-06-22 10:26:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Doctor
You are looking for Galente ships. If you get a 500m crystal you are just making lasers into blasters.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-06-22 10:33:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Mr Doctor wrote:
You are looking for Galente ships. If you get a 500m crystal you are just making lasers into blasters.


You forget that galships have more mid slots than amarr ships (ra[n]ge control!!!!) and that blasters have a lot better tracking plus damage at short range than lasers.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Jezza McWaffle
United Operations of Dominion
Sinful Syndicate
#4 - 2013-06-22 10:46:56 UTC
Maybe a good idea would be to change the bonuses Conflag gets. Make it have slightly less (5-10%) DPS than faction multi but an increased tracking of maybe 50% over it?

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#5 - 2013-06-22 10:48:28 UTC
Yeah but they need range control or blasters cant do anything and they track better at close range because thats their job. The three close range gunnery systems each have their unique range stats (close/close, long/short, short/long) and they shouldnt have ammo that makes them basically become the other races system. Lasers have a biiiig advantage of insta ammo, if you AB/scram fit and come up against and MWD target where you can overload into a 8-10km orbit they lose at least 5 seconds of DPS switching to range ammo.

In the end its about picking your encounter.... if you think a ship can hold you and beat you at 500m, run away :p

Theres always the Tormentor or Venge if you wasnt the extra mids for range control.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-06-22 10:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Mr Doctor wrote:
Yeah but they need range control or blasters cant do anything and they track better at close range because thats their job. The three close range gunnery systems each have their unique range stats (close/close, long/short, short/long) and they shouldnt have ammo that makes them basically become the other races system. Lasers have a biiiig advantage of insta ammo, if you AB/scram fit and come up against and MWD target where you can overload into a 8-10km orbit they lose at least 5 seconds of DPS switching to range ammo.

In the end its about picking your encounter.... if you think a ship can hold you and beat you at 500m, run away :p

Theres always the Tormentor or Venge if you wasnt the extra mids for range control.


And that would the punisher, retribution, slicer and bigger ships not make more usefull^^
Amarr laser boats should not have range control with scram or web but range control with their guns by switching crystals fast.
Actually that doesn´t work because they are useless at short range. A small pulse laser is only marginal better at short range than a 75mm rail (!!!) and eats more cap.
Still an atron would prolly kill a punisher when orbiting at 500m but the punisher would maybe have a little (only a little) chance to kill the atron at 500m.

The only usefull frigates amarr actually have is Vengeance, (Executioner) and Tormentor. And Tormentor+Exec are only usable because they CAN gain range control.
It was crazy how helpless that retribution was only because his lasers were completely useless at 500m^^.
Punisher is even worse than rifter. Concerning the slicer.... well thank you Fozzie^^

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Mr Doctor
Sex Machineguns
#7 - 2013-06-22 11:03:29 UTC
Not every ship has to be a solo ship.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-06-22 11:06:33 UTC
range control? switching crystals?

Switching crystals is just falloff for lasers, except you have to manually change crystals, while DPS falls off smoothly and automatically with range for projectiles.

Projectiles have many OPd mechanics... this is not news
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-22 11:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
LOL OP! JUST LOL! 8/10



Stopped reading when you said the Slicer doesn't have range control. THE GODDAMN IMPERIAL NAVY SLICER doesn't have range control? LolLolLolLolLolLol

Lasers probably have the best range control in the game. Some Amarr fits aren't SUPPOSED to go up close and brawl everything. The Slicer keeps at 22km to do damage with Scorch. The kiting Retribution with Scorch is one of the most effective fits in the game. The Crucifier can hit out to afar, or do great damage at far optimals. The Punisher is a hell of a brick and can be fitted for massive EHP while taking down frigates at range.

OP, I completely disagree with you. The Slicer and Retribution are some of the BEST ships in the game, and the instant switching of
laser crystals gives unprecedented range control. Instead of asking CCP to change, why don't you change yourself?

Also, the Slicer was BUFFED (albeit slightly) last expansion.

Your suggestions would eliminate the point of blasters too.

I have received a plethora of kills, both solo and in fleet, with these ships. Often at top damage, often kiting at 20km with Scorch. How about you try to fit correctly?
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-06-22 11:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
LOL OP! JUST LOL! 8/10



Stopped reading when you said the Slicer doesn't have range control. THE GODDAMN IMPERIAL NAVY SLICER doesn't have range control? LolLolLolLolLolLol

Lasers probably have the best range control in the game. Some Amarr fits aren't SUPPOSED to go up close and brawl everything. The Slicer keeps at 22km to do damage with Scorch. The kiting Retribution with Scorch is one of the most effective fits in the game. The Crucifier can hit out to afar, or do great damage at far optimals. The Punisher is a hell of a brick and can be fitted for massive EHP while taking down frigates at range.

OP, I completely disagree with you. The Slicer and Retribution are some of the BEST ships in the game, and the instant switching of
laser crystals gives unprecedented range control. Instead of asking CCP to change, why don't you change yourself?

Also, the Slicer was BUFFED (albeit slightly) last expansion.

Your suggestions would eliminate the point of blasters too.

I have received a plethora of kills, both solo and in fleet, with these ships. Often at top damage, often kiting at 20km with Scorch. How about you try to fit correctly?


Just wonder when you did some pvp the last time^^
Slicer and Retribution can get completely neutralised by one td. Of course they can go close range then... to die horribly.
I am in amarr militia. And with exception of the tormentor almost everyone will tell you that slicer, punisher and reti are c..p.
Kiting with slicer? Okay you only kill clueless noobs it seems. I have a ton of friends in amarr mili who tried and stopped that because it is too slow, vulnerable to td and the brawling fit will die because again... no range control.
Retribution is a total joke. I could have orbited that thing in hawk until next dt if they wouldn´t have blobbed me.


Edit: Moment... Punisher taking down frigs at range???? ROFL.
Okay you never tried pvp.
Puni is kiting fodder or brawling fodder. It is worst ship in game atm. Even a rifter would eat it for breakfast.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#11 - 2013-06-22 11:51:50 UTC
ITT: OP tries to brawl with kiting ships, dies horribly, demands CCP homogenize weapons.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-06-22 11:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
ITT: OP tries to brawl with kiting ships, dies horribly, demands CCP homogenize weapons.


Troll trolls as always.
Look my kb. I (like many others) stopped using amarr laser boats looong time ago with my other char.
The laser cruisers are okay in fleets. But the frigs are horrible (with exception of tormentor).

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#13 - 2013-06-22 12:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
ITT: OP tries to brawl with kiting ships, dies horribly, demands CCP homogenize weapons.


Troll trolls as always.
Look my kb. I (like many others) stopped using amarr laser boats looong time ago with my other char.
The laser cruisers are okay in fleets. But the frigs are horrible (with exception of tormentor).


You only wish I were trolling. Then it would be easier to delude yourself into believing that you aren't making any mistakes and it's really all the ship's fault.

I don't troll. I never have. I'm simply blunt and at times sarcastic, maybe a bit caustic. If that's trolling to you, then I don't know what to say to help you re-educate yourself correctly.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-06-22 12:04:30 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Colt Blackhawk wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
ITT: OP tries to brawl with kiting ships, dies horribly, demands CCP homogenize weapons.


Troll trolls as always.
Look my kb. I (like many others) stopped using amarr laser boats looong time ago with my other char.
The laser cruisers are okay in fleets. But the frigs are horrible (with exception of tormentor).


You only wish I were trolling. Then it would be easier to delude yourself into believing that you aren't making any mistakes and it's really all the ship's fault.


You are a gallente trolling alt I suppose?

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#15 - 2013-06-22 12:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Alt? Hilarious. I post with my main. Do you post with yours?

No matter. Even if I wanted to troll people, it would be redundant. I communicate in a blunt sort of way, which somehow offends people and, being offended for no good reason, they troll themselves. Then they throw accusations of "Troll! Troll!" when the only trolling that happened was the self-inflicted trolling that went on inside their minds.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-06-22 12:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Colt Blackhawk
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Alt? Hilarious. I post with my main. Do you post with yours?

No matter. Even if I wanted to troll people, it would be redundant. I communicate in a blunt sort of way, which somehow offends people and, being offended for no good reason, they troll themselves. Then they throw accusations of "Troll! Troll!" when the only trolling that happened was the self-inflicted trolling that went on inside their minds.


If that is your main I don´t think that (when looking at your killboard!!!) you should discuss here because you really have no clue and no experience concerning the topic.

Edit: When looking at Nyancats kb the same counts for her.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#17 - 2013-06-22 12:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
You obviously haven't considered the fact that PvP alts exist or that the only kills you see when you look up my name are the ones that other people have posted - I never post anything to killboards ever. However, if the only thing you have left to fall back on is this, then perhaps you should just stop struggling. You want something that is completely ridiculous because you're flying a ship the wrong way. End of discussion.

Also, Nyancat is pretty obviously a forum alt. Just give up already and accept that you're Doing It Wrong™.
Colt Blackhawk
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-06-22 12:36:48 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
You obviously haven't considered the fact that PvP alts exist or that the only kills you see when you look up my name are the ones that other people have posted - I never post anything to killboards ever. However, if the only thing you have left to fall back on is this, then perhaps you should just stop struggling. You want something that is completely ridiculous because you're flying a ship the wrong way. End of discussion.

Also, Nyancat is pretty obviously a forum alt. Just give up already and accept that you're Doing It Wrong™.


ROOOOOOOOOOOOOOFL.
Sorry but almost everything killed in eve lands in eve kill. You don´t need to post your kills. Your victims have their api probably aleady in eve kill so that they post their losses automatically. So where are your 1000 kills?
I simply want a discussion with people who have a clue of pvp and also Nyancats kb is erm... very many solokills^^
F1 Nullbear.
Fact is that CCP wanted to do range control with amarrian ships by using the crystals. Actually there isn´t any crystal for short range. Point.

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
#19 - 2013-06-22 12:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Azula Kishtar
Overall, i can't fully agree with OP.

The Slicer is not meant to be a Brawler. It is a kiter. I admit TDs are very powerful against it, but any non-missle Frigate Kiter has trouble with TDs. The problem here rather lies with TDs, not the Slicer.

Retribution can be flown like a heavier Slicer, which suffers from the same problem like the Slicer of course. Flown as a Brawler, it is not quite as bad as the Slicer or Punisher because it gets a tracking bonus.


Their real problem with (solo) brawling simply comes from the fact that they can't fit web, prop and scram at the same time. But this is only an issue when they are alone.

While i appreciate soloing and good ships for it, i do not think every ship has to be able to do it (and they actually can, even if they are not always a good choice). These boats have otherwise good attributes going for them, such as great range (with Short range guns, no less) or tank.


Something i still have to test is how well a solo brawling Retribution/Punisher with Gattling Pulses would work. No one ever uses them, but they might be good enough to successfully surprise and kill poeple with ships that are otherweise sub-par at solo brawling.

- Azula

(Maybe a balance pass of gun tiers would actually be a good idea, just in general)
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#20 - 2013-06-22 12:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Amarr has two short-range crystals: Multifrequency and Conflagration. One of them has only slightly better damage than Scorch without any of the range bonus and the other has good damage but also a tracking penalty. So your complaint that "there isn't any crystal for short range" is invalid. What you're actually saying is "there isn't any crystal for blaster range". On this, you are correct - there isn't any crystal for blaster range, nor is there intended to be or they'd exist by now.

Amarr ships aren't meant to fight in blaster range - that's why there are blaster ships. If you're trying to fly your ship closer to your target than what your guns can track, then that isn't your guns' fault or your ship's fault - that's pilot error. Next time you want to brawl in blaster range with an Amarrian ship, try using a Vengeance that doesn't have to worry about tracking. If you insist on flying a laser ship, then get some Scorch and stay at proper kiting range instead of trying to make the guns do something they simply cannot do. People use Scorch for a reason and they stay at kiting range with it for a reason.

You act as though I have no idea what I'm talking about, but even I know that you're not supposed to get into web/scram range with a kiting ship, and anything that can reach out past web is definitely a kiting ship. Rage and throw insults less, Lrn2fly more. Stop trying to homogenize the game just because you're a terribad pilot.


EDIT: @ Azula - CCP has been making vague noises and exaggerated motions that suggest they're looking at an overall laser rebalance. It's certainly something that could be useful and we'll just have to see what comes of it.
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