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New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.

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Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2013-06-21 20:25:06 UTC
Skill Training Online wrote:

This is an emotional crisis


I'm sorry, what?
AlphaOperative Altren
Alternative Rendition
#102 - 2013-06-21 20:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: AlphaOperative Altren
Hi,

Can CCP please stop my wallet blinking, ive spent 2 1/2 years in this game trying to build industry and now im constantly having to deal with a blinking wallet, Its awful!

I didnt start playing this game for this, i just wanted to max out a character in my school holidays then strut around like i own the place.

Instead, ive been burdened with experience & a good few mates (which is bad enough) but now i have to deal with a flashing wallet icon every few minutes!

CCP should nerf experience, Ingenuity and longevity ASAP or i swear ill ragequit!

Nobody ever figures out what life is all about, and it doesn't matter. Explore the world. Nearly everything is really interesting if you go into it deeply enough. ― Richard P. Feynman
Reuben Johnson
Gal-Min Industries
#103 - 2013-06-21 20:32:08 UTC
Skill Training Online wrote:
CCP should change the way the "Drones" skill works.

Set the base number of drones controllable to 5.

Have the skill just increase the damage by 20% per level.

It really feels bad to be a low SP player in a fleet with older players and only being able to launch two drones.


This is an emotional crisis for many new players.


If that causes you to have an emotional crisis, the problem isnt the # of drones, the problem is YOU! Go seek help from a traned phsycologists, not from the Devs.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2013-06-21 20:33:28 UTC
Marmaduke Hatplate wrote:
New player here, love drones, wish I could name them (though I also realise that's not far off being as pointless as naming my bullets lol), and I am currently just 5 short hours away from Drones 5. Yes, 3 days ago I thought 'hm, I'd better start thinking about my long-term drone prospects.

Now when I look back across the mists of antiquity to the halcyon times of, er, Tuesday, I wish I could let that bright-eyed youngster meet the stooped veteran of today and congratulate him on his fsr-sightedness. That mature-beyond-his-years rookie of the day before the day before yesterday made an investment, and three whole days later, it is paying off.

Drones 5. You gotta play the Long Game.

In 6 hours, I will start Drone Interface training, and enter my cryogenics chamber to wait until the sun dies, or next month, whichever comes sooner.



I used to name my hobgoblins names from Bumfights. Calling them "hobos" never really helped in that regard.

But I digress.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2013-06-21 20:35:46 UTC
Bl4ck Ph03n1x wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Quote:
New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.


No one ever promised that EVE was going to be fair. The odds are stacked against you, and you have to train to overcome them.

The Drones skill has functioned this way for the last decade. Training it to V like everyone else will enable people to field 5 drones.



There is a slight unbalance, though. A missile, laser, hybrid or projectile pilot can field all his guns at pew pew lvl1
A gallentean/ammar drone pilot need an additional skill to 5 to do the same.

But then we all know drones are broken for the last decade. Maybe, one day, a drone expansion...?



That's not true.

Any drone pilot can field all of his guns at the same time a turret pilot can.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-06-21 20:44:13 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
Quote:
New Players left out. Drones V is unfair.


No one ever promised that EVE was going to be fair. The odds are stacked against you, and you have to train to overcome them.

The Drones skill has functioned this way for the last decade. Training it to V like everyone else will enable people to field 5 drones.



The question you gotta ask yourself is "is this a good design choice, how does this make the game better, especially since this mostly affects new players, and especially since we've just introduced a T1 frigate that requires 5 drones to function?" How is it a good thing, for a new player, to be told, after purchasing a Tristan, "sorry, but you have to wait a week before you can actually use this". Will this help the player stay in the game, or will it make him say "a week? don't think so, bye!", especially since most people trying EVE will be doing so on a 14-day trial. Drones V is one of those skills that does lots of harm to new players, and has no measurable benefit, aside from being there for conformity's sake. I trained this skill many years ago, and I STILL remember the annoyance of having had to do so.

Also, "it's been this way for a decade, so there's no need to change it" is not necessarily right. Perhaps it's time to update certain things. This is one of the skills eminently ready for updating. Along with drones in general, which have been ridiculously broken for a very, very long time.



I'd almost warrant to bet that if being able to use 5 drones within a day of playing a trial account, you are in for a big suprise. Especially if that's going to be a make or break element to decide if you choose to play the game for longer than 2 weeks.

But then... it would be better to stick with a more manageable frigate that wouldn't be so heavily centered on a skill that takes days to see it's potential anyways.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2013-06-21 20:45:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Skill Training Online wrote:
CCP should change the way the "Drones" skill works.

Set the base number of drones controllable to 5.

Have the skill just increase the damage by 20% per level.

It really feels bad to be a low SP player in a fleet with older players and only being able to launch two drones.


This is an emotional crisis for many new players.



I've always said, CCP should just allow people to buy Skill Points with PLEX.

That way, "low SP players" are forced to spend 100's of Dollars/Euros/Pesos to jump right in with absolutely NO CLUE of what they are doing.

Pure winsauce for everyone.

Roll


i'd actually buy plex to do this... especially for all those prerequisites that aren't ideal to train on my current remap. (looking at you propulsion jamming!)



3 days left on that damned thing.

Stupid Devoters and Zealots with their off the wall reqs =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2013-06-21 20:56:12 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
AlphaOperative Altren wrote:
Skill Training Online wrote:
This is an emotional crisis for many new players.


This line makes me happy


Clubbing baby seals makes you happy too Pirate



Don't knock it until you've tried it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2013-06-21 21:24:59 UTC
UddWilliam wrote:
Jeffrey Asher wrote:


3. or they can stay, keep training in-game skills and learning player skills to survive, the latter often from the vast number of veterans I have found who are more than happy to help a newbie and dispense advice.

I'd die at the moment in almost any PVP situation I can think of, and will keep doing so for a while, but I hope to learn why and be on the winning side one day. I'd be bored stupid if all I had to do was go and pay some real-world money to buy a magic sword and I could then win against someone who had been playing for ages. Bleh, I'd rather feel like I've achieved something thanks.


3=1+2
They are clever and willing to learn EVE, and pay enough gametime to learn enough skill.

So my key question is:
Should EVE keep going on as a crazy toy for only a small group of people, or have some changes to welcome more potential players and make the game more colorful.

Those people you mentioned are only a small group of all potential players of EVE. Most players love sci-fic and pvp, and they are clever or willing to pay, but they don't have the responsibility to stay in this game and learn how to fight back those have unfair advantages. For most of them, they will just choose to play another game, just because they can have more fun in those game.

A game is a game. Forcing oneself to adapt to an unfair game mechanism is not playing a game, but being played by a game. If one is so strong then he should fufill his goal in real world, not to waste time playing games. Big smile



I don't think people remember quite how fun it can be to simply get some t1 fitted t1 frigates and just go on a roam.

You don't NEED skills to have fun. Skills only allow more options.

Whether you have 1mil sp, 10mil sp or 100mil sp, if you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
UddWilliam
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#110 - 2013-06-22 02:28:38 UTC  |  Edited by: UddWilliam
Murk Paradox wrote:


I don't think people remember quite how fun it can be to simply get some t1 fitted t1 frigates and just go on a roam.

You don't NEED skills to have fun. Skills only allow more options.

Whether you have 1mil sp, 10mil sp or 100mil sp, if you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right.


To tell you the truth is, I know it, and I did learn how to pvp using t1 frig in FW and won some fights.

But soon I know what upsets me:
PVP in EVE is like "Warping online", especially for solo player.

Fly a frig in lowsec and you spend 30 mins and you find nothing but teams you can't defeat by yourself or some other solo players that keep escaping. Then you finally get someone that's willing to have a fight, but you fail and explode, then you have to spend another 30 mins to warp to a trade hub or your corp home to fit another ship and repeat playing warping online again.

And many nullsec-ers are complaining that CTA is just a process like this : spend 1 hours to do 30 jumps, shoot, explode, spend another hour to jump back home or speed it up by exploding you pod :).

That's why I saw a thread complaining someone can use micro-warp + stealth to escape from gate camp easily, just because they keep waiting for hours and find few things to shoot. Big smile


Jenn aSide wrote:


Man, were are missing out , we should get some of them irresponsible/impatient instant gratification kids up in here so EVE can be beautiful like the rest of gaming.....

Sarcasm aside, a REAL EVE player is someone who likes a CHALLENGE. Like how Goons came in, saw the established order and said "to hell with that" and toppled them......only to become the Established order themselves lol. But thats another thread Twisted



Keep warping in EVE or suiside to shoot someone you can't defeat is not CHALLENGE, but it's too common in EVE. That's all I want to talk about.



Opps, I think i went too far from what this thread is talking about.

What makes me so interested in this thread is how CCP Falcon replied. With no disrespect, but I think:

It's better not to answer a thread with some logic like "somthing has functioned for a decade so it's good and no need to change". Please, hear voices from more players and answer like a game dev more.

Or you just show you don't know how it hurts players. Everything in EVE has functioned for a decade and you don't even need to have expansions because nothing need to be changed.Roll

Keep Drones V like what it is now has no obivious adavantages. A caracal without Missile Ops V can run well. But you won't even want to use a vexor without Drone V to do LV2 missions because you loose more dps than caracal just because a T1 skills. It's obiviously discouraging newbie to choose what he want to fly freely.

So tell me why not make a little change to make it more funny for a newbie, or CCP don't care newbie? @CCP Falcon
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#111 - 2013-06-22 02:53:33 UTC
sighs vexor allows you to launch 5 lights, 5 mediums or i belive 4 heavys sooo.
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#112 - 2013-06-22 03:19:48 UTC
This is an energy crisis. Player energy is being subverted.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-06-22 03:52:47 UTC
UddWilliam wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:


I don't think people remember quite how fun it can be to simply get some t1 fitted t1 frigates and just go on a roam.

You don't NEED skills to have fun. Skills only allow more options.

Whether you have 1mil sp, 10mil sp or 100mil sp, if you aren't having fun, you aren't doing it right.


To tell you the truth is, I know it, and I did learn how to pvp using t1 frig in FW and won some fights.

But soon I know what upsets me:
PVP in EVE is like "Warping online", especially for solo player.

Fly a frig in lowsec and you spend 30 mins and you find nothing but teams you can't defeat by yourself or some other solo players that keep escaping. Then you finally get someone that's willing to have a fight, but you fail and explode, then you have to spend another 30 mins to warp to a trade hub or your corp home to fit another ship and repeat playing warping online again.

And many nullsec-ers are complaining that CTA is just a process like this : spend 1 hours to do 30 jumps, shoot, explode, spend another hour to jump back home or speed it up by exploding you pod :).

That's why I saw a thread complaining someone can use micro-warp + stealth to escape from gate camp easily, just because they keep waiting for hours and find few things to shoot. Big smile


Jenn aSide wrote:


Man, were are missing out , we should get some of them irresponsible/impatient instant gratification kids up in here so EVE can be beautiful like the rest of gaming.....

Sarcasm aside, a REAL EVE player is someone who likes a CHALLENGE. Like how Goons came in, saw the established order and said "to hell with that" and toppled them......only to become the Established order themselves lol. But thats another thread Twisted



Keep warping in EVE or suiside to shoot someone you can't defeat is not CHALLENGE, but it's too common in EVE. That's all I want to talk about.





Or you just show you don't know how it hurts players. Everything in EVE has functioned for a decade and you don't even need to have expansions because nothing need to be changed.Roll

Keep Drones V like what it is now has no obivious adavantages. A caracal without Missile Ops V can run well. But you won't even want to use a vexor without Drone V to do LV2 missions because you loose more dps than caracal just because a T1 skills. It's obiviously discouraging newbie to choose what he want to fly freely.

So tell me why not make a little change to make it more funny for a newbie, or CCP don't care newbie? @CCP Falcon



I used a Vexor to start lvl 2 missions with Drone 3, and it was harder and I lost a Vexor on one mission. I had a bunch of fun losing that and learned a lot, came back to the mission with a much better kitted Vexor and finished it, and trained Drone 5 and DI 3 since. Lvl 2 missions are much easier now and just as much fun because I had to level up to it.

Maybe I haven't been around long enough to see that anything is broken, but the game to me is a whole bunch of fun exactly the way it is, it wouldn't keep me coming back if everything was handed to me on a plate when I started.

Personally I don't see a change needing to be made, from a newbie perspective. If you change the game to make everybody who starts playing it happy it would be the most boring game ever made, I would hope some people start it, hate it and move on to something else.

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#114 - 2013-06-22 03:58:20 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Jeffrey Asher wrote:
Skill Training Online wrote:
CCP should change the way the "Drones" skill works.

Set the base number of drones controllable to 5.

Have the skill just increase the damage by 20% per level.

It really feels bad to be a low SP player in a fleet with older players and only being able to launch two drones.


This is an emotional crisis for many new players.



It's not an emotional crisis, I've been playing for a month and prioritized getting Drones 5 trained early so I could use 5 drones at once. Why not just give everyone medium guns and racial cruiser as well from the start, so we can use a cruiser straight away and aren't scarred forever?

Drone envy is not pretty.



Or do one better... let's give everyone a free BC! I welcome you, the Gnosis!!


Got one of those for paying my cash - I still haven't flown it because I am not game - the one thing they forgot to give me was any skills so that I don't lose the thing the minute I undock.

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#115 - 2013-06-22 04:25:33 UTC
200% boost to drone damage. I'm in. Do it CCP.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

UddWilliam
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-06-22 04:36:26 UTC
Jeffrey Asher wrote:

I used a Vexor to start lvl 2 missions with Drone 3, and it was harder and I lost a Vexor on one mission. I had a bunch of fun losing that and learned a lot, came back to the mission with a much better kitted Vexor and finished it, and trained Drone 5 and DI 3 since. Lvl 2 missions are much easier now and just as much fun because I had to level up to it.

Maybe I haven't been around long enough to see that anything is broken, but the game to me is a whole bunch of fun exactly the way it is, it wouldn't keep me coming back if everything was handed to me on a plate when I started.

Personally I don't see a change needing to be made, from a newbie perspective. If you change the game to make everybody who starts playing it happy it would be the most boring game ever made, I would hope some people start it, hate it and move on to something else.


So CCP should remove Caracal because it makes it too easy to farm LV2 mission and makes the game dull.Bear

Challenge should be set by good game design, not by some skill training related traps.

I admire you that you try to overcome a mission by changing fit. And this is what I called a good game design and makes the game looks smart.
auraofblade
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-06-22 05:04:17 UTC
TBH, the only real issue with Drones V is the Tristan. It's just a touch wonky for new pilots to go "minutes...hours...a day...wait, 5 days?" for a ship they probably get within 1-3 hours of play. To the rest of us this is basically nothing, but for someone who just dipped in it might feel like a bit of a brick wall.

However, I also think this can get solved without wrecking everything. Drop the Tristan Bandwidth to 20 from 25, then give it a 5% bonus to Drone Damage per skill level. The effective output is still the same for veterans and you don't have to consume the first week of a newbie's trial. It's not as big of a problem with the Algos, Dragoon or any Cruiser because those are further off in the skill tree, so a newbie is already in a position where they need to plan out a week's worth of skill points.

(yes, I know this is a troll thread, but I'm biting anyways)
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-06-22 05:16:17 UTC
UddWilliam wrote:
Jeffrey Asher wrote:

I used a Vexor to start lvl 2 missions with Drone 3, and it was harder and I lost a Vexor on one mission. I had a bunch of fun losing that and learned a lot, came back to the mission with a much better kitted Vexor and finished it, and trained Drone 5 and DI 3 since. Lvl 2 missions are much easier now and just as much fun because I had to level up to it.

Maybe I haven't been around long enough to see that anything is broken, but the game to me is a whole bunch of fun exactly the way it is, it wouldn't keep me coming back if everything was handed to me on a plate when I started.

Personally I don't see a change needing to be made, from a newbie perspective. If you change the game to make everybody who starts playing it happy it would be the most boring game ever made, I would hope some people start it, hate it and move on to something else.


1. So CCP should remove Caracal because it makes it too easy to farm LV2 mission and makes the game dull.Bear

2. Challenge should be set by good game design, not by some skill training related traps.

3.I admire you that you try to overcome a mission by changing fit. And this is what I called a good game design and makes the game looks smart.


I added the numbers so I can answer as my skill with the forums isn't so great yet - perhaps another skill that could be added to the game. Smile

1. Never flown one so I don't know the stats, if people are because they can farm lvl 2 missions then good luck to them but yeah that sounds mightily boring, but their choice.

2. The game is designed around skills to an extent, and choosing which ones to prioritize is part of that - so if I want to have an all-gun Cruiser that is good at lvl 2 missions or pvp, I can put my training there. If i want to go drones I can go there. I see that challenge as coming from good game design - being able to do it whichever way I see fit is working for me. I don't see skill training as a trap, and certainly not compared to having to go kill 1000 rats before I can do ANYTHING in other games.

3. Thanks, and yep that IS good game design, not being restricted to just one way of doing something, or one path to advancement.

If other newbies are finding the game boring then they need to stop mining and go do something, go get blown up a few times, make an arse of yourself in the forums and explore a bit.

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Jeffrey Asher
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-06-22 05:20:57 UTC
and perhaps Troll Detection could also be added as a skill, seems I need that one.

The power to cause pain is the only power that matters, the power to kill and destroy, because if you can't kill then you are always subject to those who can, and nothing and no one will ever save you.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#120 - 2013-06-22 07:39:47 UTC
Drones are unfair, remove drones.









Whoops, meant to say OP.