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Why We Should Support Off Grid Boosting
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#141 - 2013-06-21 18:28:01 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:

I'm not challenging your statement here, just curious. It is not possible for a Tengu to be flown that well without OGB? I mean, he seems pretty much invincible, at least in the first few battles.
How much skill is involved, or is OGB just that powerful?


No, you really can't fly a Tengu that well without OGB. The ship fitting relies on OGBs to cover up the inherent flaws. That said, videos like that rely on a combination of things - personal skill, skillpoints, OGB, and unprepared opponents. I personally enjoy using pirate implants and OGB to take on things that I absolutely shouldn't be able to. Like taking on a Brutix and a (pre nerf) Cane in a Harpy and winning.

-Liang


I've solo'd (pre nerf) Canes, Vagabonds, Rapiers, etc in frigate hulls (I prefer the taranis) without OGBs and Pirate implants. Somehow, I feel like your cheating when you use OGB's to accomplish the same thing!!!!!

In their current formation, a 3x Siege Warefare Linked, mindlinked Tengu is essentially adding 15% more Shields, 35% more Shield Resists and 70% more shield repping power. This is equivalent to adding an extra CDFE Rig, an Anit-EM rig, Anti-Therm rig, Anti-Exp rig, Anti-Kin Resist Rig, 2x CD Operational Solidifier Rigs, and 3x CD Capacitor Safeguard Rigs.

That's 10 extra rigs on top of your standard fit.... How could ANYONE suggest that would be good game play?
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#142 - 2013-06-21 18:28:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeus Maximo
I fly my 100mn tengu without boosts all the time. With HG snakes i go around 2500 m/s which is more than enough to kill most fleets.

Now we are on the argument:

Pirate/T3 ship with deadspace/officer fittings killed my fleet because he had a OGB.

Maybe he killed your fleet because his ship was literally worth more than your entire fleet??? I can easily take on 3 bs's with my 100mn tengu without boosts. So if OGB were out of the equation you all would go after implants/oversized AB's.

CCP is quick to notice whiners :)
Keep up the tears!

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2013-06-21 18:47:21 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
maCH'EttE wrote:
Yes Eve is a harsh world, it sure is, so deal with OGB.
And if you are complaining about "Pay to Win", that argument can be applied to any faction point/scram/web, fancy pirate implants, you deal with it
You have a problem with OGB and players that use them, well, it is not really hard to spot a toon using links, before fighting, scan the system, if you see a loki/legion/tengu, dont fight, even simpler, check their speed.
And instead of brining an ecm/logi alt bring a scanning alt. With the recent changes to probing you fellas should not have a hard time probing a ship.
Now get off of OGB's t.it


EVE is supposed to be a harsh world so deal with having your booster on grid and at risk instead of hidden.

look mutt, i aint your mom, get of my t.it.


Nice one. Now how about you fight the argument instead of attacking the poster?
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-06-21 19:09:36 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
maCH'EttE wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
maCH'EttE wrote:
Yes Eve is a harsh world, it sure is, so deal with OGB.
And if you are complaining about "Pay to Win", that argument can be applied to any faction point/scram/web, fancy pirate implants, you deal with it
You have a problem with OGB and players that use them, well, it is not really hard to spot a toon using links, before fighting, scan the system, if you see a loki/legion/tengu, dont fight, even simpler, check their speed.
And instead of brining an ecm/logi alt bring a scanning alt. With the recent changes to probing you fellas should not have a hard time probing a ship.
Now get off of OGB's t.it


EVE is supposed to be a harsh world so deal with having your booster on grid and at risk instead of hidden.

look mutt, i aint your mom, get of my t.it.


Nice one. Now how about you fight the argument instead of attacking the poster?

See what the problem is that you are kind of to slow.
Theres no problem with having OGB, putting OGB on grid is not going to get rid of the problem of people having boosts. So I really do not understand what your problem is. Is it the fact that people have boosts or is it the fact that small gang pvp/solo pvp'ers use OGB to their advantage to beat the bigger corps/alliances that are the F1,F2 warriors.
If having them off grid, well your argument holds no value since you can probe them out. You sound like the 3 year old turd that keeps complaning about afk claokers in ratting systems. Since the update to the probing changes, I probed out a ship under 4's, and let me tell you, I am not a prober. Like stated before, instead of having a falcon alt or a logi alt, try a probing alt. There your argument is pretty much solved.
Eve is harsh argument. Yeah eve is harsh, and with the new probing changes, eve is harder because the changes have made probing so easy.
Money to win argument, if thats the case, lets get rid of all T3 with pimp fits, faction scrams/webs/.
The matter of the fact is, deal with it.
Just like people who hate seing ecm drones and falcons alts with sabers.
I say keep them the way they are, if you want to change anything, give the command ships a better bonus or reduced the T3's bonus to boosting and make the tank on command ships the tank of a carrier if they are gonna be on grid.
You people just dont understand.
The changes will impact alot of pvp'ers, the only ones that will use boosts are gonna be the large alliances and corps, its simple as that.
Go ask the small gang corps such as, exodus, genos, rote, mafia, outbreak, tempest legion, and the others that I do not have on the top of my head, about how important OGB is to their pvp style.
CCP needs to fix other things in this game before touching OGB boosters, such as ECM drones/ ECM ships, the joke of armor active tank ships and many other things that concern pvp.
So get off my t.it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#145 - 2013-06-21 19:17:47 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
I fly my 100mn tengu without boosts all the time. With HG snakes i go around 2500 m/s which is more than enough to kill most fleets.

Now we are on the argument:

Pirate/T3 ship with deadspace/officer fittings killed my fleet because he had a OGB.

Maybe he killed your fleet because his ship was literally worth more than your entire fleet??? I can easily take on 3 bs's with my 100mn tengu without boosts. So if OGB were out of the equation you all would go after implants/oversized AB's.

CCP is quick to notice whiners :)
Keep up the tears!


I'll 1v1 your unboosted 100mn tengu vs my boosted Oracle. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-06-21 19:22:52 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:

Go ask the small gang corps such as, exodus, genos, rote, mafia, outbreak, tempest legion, and the others that I do not have on the top of my head, about how important OGB is to their pvp style.


Pretty sure it's a big deal to them eecause it allow them for example to get :

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

In their current formation, a 3x Siege Warefare Linked, mindlinked Tengu is essentially adding 15% more Shields, 35% more Shield Resists and 70% more shield repping power. This is equivalent to adding an extra CDFE Rig, an Anit-EM rig, Anti-Therm rig, Anti-Exp rig, Anti-Kin Resist Rig, 2x CD Operational Solidifier Rigs, and 3x CD Capacitor Safeguard Rigs.



I would find it important to my playstyle too if I was counting on that to do what I do in game.
maCH'EttE
Perkone
Caldari State
#147 - 2013-06-21 19:25:35 UTC
whatever you people are just dumb.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2013-06-21 19:34:09 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
I fly my 100mn tengu without boosts all the time. With HG snakes i go around 2500 m/s which is more than enough to kill most fleets.

Now we are on the argument:

Pirate/T3 ship with deadspace/officer fittings killed my fleet because he had a OGB.

Maybe he killed your fleet because his ship was literally worth more than your entire fleet??? I can easily take on 3 bs's with my 100mn tengu without boosts. So if OGB were out of the equation you all would go after implants/oversized AB's.

CCP is quick to notice whiners :)
Keep up the tears!


I think this is where you problem with OGB lies man. Whenever you fly these sorts of ships to the exclusion of other ships, you don't realize what a level playing field means.

I have been in dozens if not hundreds of fights where it's been THAT CLOSE. You know, that sort've fight where one good piloting decision, one extra skill level, saved you by 5% structure or gave a pilot that extra half-second bump to get out of range. But those fights aren't against pilots with OGB, they're against pilots who are on a level playing field that test their mettle in the realm of pilot skill and knowledge.

The fights I do get against OGB pilot are where I've been out-blobbed or out-spent into oblivion. Their ships are quicker, more agile, tougher, and make it to where that extra decision you made didn't save you by 5% structure. You were still too slow, still too little dps, still too little ehp.

Now don't think I'm whining about pay-to-win. A tengu should **** my T1/T2 cruiser given the same piloting skill. But that tengu being on grid risks that tengu getting tackled and blobbed to hell. OGB doesn't risk a thing, and in the case of the common condor/maulus/hookbill pilot, represents an enormous bonus where almost nothing is risked.

OGB kills the real solo/small gang. Not your officer fitted "solo" OGB tengu raping some poor pirate fleet. Not 20 man, not 10 man gangs, that 1-5 person realm of people who instigate fights, lead fleets, and represent the realm where pilot choice and player knowledge are most important. "Elite" pvp'ers will find a way to be "Elite" whatever the circumstances, level the playing field for the rest of us
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#149 - 2013-06-21 20:57:58 UTC
maCH'EttE wrote:

See what the problem is that you are kind of to slow.
Theres no problem with having OGB, putting OGB on grid is not going to get rid of the problem of people having boosts. So I really do not understand what your problem is. Is it the fact that people have boosts or is it the fact that small gang pvp/solo pvp'ers use OGB to their advantage to beat the bigger corps/alliances that are the F1,F2 warriors.
If having them off grid, well your argument holds no value since you can probe them out. You sound like the 3 year old turd that keeps complaning about afk claokers in ratting systems. Since the update to the probing changes, I probed out a ship under 4's, and let me tell you, I am not a prober. Like stated before, instead of having a falcon alt or a logi alt, try a probing alt. There your argument is pretty much solved.
Eve is harsh argument. Yeah eve is harsh, and with the new probing changes, eve is harder because the changes have made probing so easy.
Money to win argument, if thats the case, lets get rid of all T3 with pimp fits, faction scrams/webs/.
The matter of the fact is, deal with it.
Just like people who hate seing ecm drones and falcons alts with sabers.
I say keep them the way they are, if you want to change anything, give the command ships a better bonus or reduced the T3's bonus to boosting and make the tank on command ships the tank of a carrier if they are gonna be on grid.
You people just dont understand.
The changes will impact alot of pvp'ers, the only ones that will use boosts are gonna be the large alliances and corps, its simple as that.
Go ask the small gang corps such as, exodus, genos, rote, mafia, outbreak, tempest legion, and the others that I do not have on the top of my head, about how important OGB is to their pvp style.
CCP needs to fix other things in this game before touching OGB boosters, such as ECM drones/ ECM ships, the joke of armor active tank ships and many other things that concern pvp.
So get off my t.it.


I'm glad people like you exist in this game. Thank you for putting these things into words as you are much better at it and more polite than I am.


Gorgoth24 wrote:


I think this is where you problem with OGB lies man. Whenever you fly these sorts of ships to the exclusion of other ships, you don't realize what a level playing field means.

I have been in dozens if not hundreds of fights where it's been THAT CLOSE. You know, that sort've fight where one good piloting decision, one extra skill level, saved you by 5% structure or gave a pilot that extra half-second bump to get out of range. But those fights aren't against pilots with OGB, they're against pilots who are on a level playing field that test their mettle in the realm of pilot skill and knowledge.

The fights I do get against OGB pilot are where I've been out-blobbed or out-spent into oblivion. Their ships are quicker, more agile, tougher, and make it to where that extra decision you made didn't save you by 5% structure. You were still too slow, still too little dps, still too little ehp.

Now don't think I'm whining about pay-to-win. A tengu should **** my T1/T2 cruiser given the same piloting skill. But that tengu being on grid risks that tengu getting tackled and blobbed to hell. OGB doesn't risk a thing, and in the case of the common condor/maulus/hookbill pilot, represents an enormous bonus where almost nothing is risked.

OGB kills the real solo/small gang. Not your officer fitted "solo" OGB tengu raping some poor pirate fleet. Not 20 man, not 10 man gangs, that 1-5 person realm of people who instigate fights, lead fleets, and represent the realm where pilot choice and player knowledge are most important. "Elite" pvp'ers will find a way to be "Elite" whatever the circumstances, level the playing field for the rest of us



What makes eve so great is that a player can never have all of the variables to predict a fight. For a fight to come down to 5% hull..... I cannot even imagine how many moons would have to align for something to be that close. Most fights in eve usually come down to one fleet getting demolished and the other losing a quarter of the fleet if any at all. I do understand that you are trying to level the playing field for the poorer more casual players in eve but that is extremely hard to do. CCP offers a reward system for players that put a lot of time/thinking into the game. The ones that truly set out to get rich get rich. Nerfing 10,000,000 skillpoints would need to have a damn good reason other than one player has the resources, another does not.

Boosts do help out a fleet but no more than a 3,000,000 SP blackbird alt or a 2,000,000 SP logi alt. Over the last few pages of this conversation I have been trying to make the point known that there are many ways to win a fight but there is not one answer.

Small gang fights usually fall apart when fleet A primaries the wrong ship on fleet B. While B is tanking fleet A they end up destroying all of the DPS. In my opinion APPLIED DPS is what wins a fight.

For Liang I would switch to precision missiles to hit his 100mn oracle with BS tracking Cool That is until he runs out of cap with lasers, his 100mn, and his armor rep.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

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Mistress Lilu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-06-21 21:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mistress Lilu
OGB has a risk.
THEY CAN BE PROBED!!
If we are talking about an absurd topic as this, OGB has no risk, I would also like probes that are covert. So when I scan a carrier ratting or a orca, I would not like them to see my probes..
Make it happen CCP.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2013-06-21 21:41:33 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

What makes eve so great is that a player can never have all of the variables to predict a fight. For a fight to come down to 5% hull..... I cannot even imagine how many moons would have to align for something to be that close. Most fights in eve usually come down to one fleet getting demolished and the other losing a quarter of the fleet if any at all. I do understand that you are trying to level the playing field for the poorer more casual players in eve but that is extremely hard to do. CCP offers a reward system for players that put a lot of time/thinking into the game. The ones that truly set out to get rich get rich. Nerfing 10,000,000 skillpoints would need to have a damn good reason other than one player has the resources, another does not.

Boosts do help out a fleet but no more than a 3,000,000 SP blackbird alt or a 2,000,000 SP logi alt. Over the last few pages of this conversation I have been trying to make the point known that there are many ways to win a fight but there is not one answer.

Small gang fights usually fall apart when fleet A primaries the wrong ship on fleet B. While B is tanking fleet A they end up destroying all of the DPS. In my opinion APPLIED DPS is what wins a fight.

For Liang I would switch to precision missiles to hit his 100mn oracle with BS tracking Cool That is until he runs out of cap with lasers, his 100mn, and his armor rep.


I can see your points, but I guess we PvP far differently. I have hullfights, and they're common. And I have fleet fights where both sides lose a good amount of their fleet, with pilot skill deciding the winner. And when you add a logi or a blackbird to your fleet it isn't helping you get kills, it's helping you avoid losses. When someone w/ loki OGB sees something they don't like, it's far too easy for them to disengage from a fleet without OGB.

It doesn't come down to whether one player has the resources and another does not. It comes down to one player RISKS the resources, where the other does not. Probing a booster is a *****, and it's not something most solo/small gang fleets come equipped with. Let alone keeping the target interested long enough to get at his booster. I can lose to a far more expensive ship and live with it. I can't lose to a less expensive ship b/c of OGB and live with it.

I understand what OGB means to genos/tribal/whatever. I've seen their videos, I've seen their fits, I understand how they pvp, and I can tell you that they'll still be elite after OGB is removed. OGB isn't the deciding factor in those fights; it's player skill, player fit, and sp. Officer fit tengus will still be OP....until CCP Rise gets to rebalancing T3s, that is :)
Zircon Dasher
#152 - 2013-06-21 21:56:00 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:

Boosts do help out a fleet but no more than a 3,000,000 SP blackbird alt or a 2,000,000 SP logi alt. Over the last few pages of this conversation I have been trying to make the point known that there are many ways to win a fight but there is not one answer.


This is actually a really good idea....

Maybe the EAF rebalance can include the ability to provide supports from off grid!

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#153 - 2013-06-21 22:04:52 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:
OGB has a risk.
THEY CAN BE PROBED!!


Because no-one fights wars in high-sec while using OGB alts. Roll

Profit favors the prepared
Mistress Lilu
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#154 - 2013-06-21 22:14:25 UTC
Evei Shard wrote:
Mistress Lilu wrote:
OGB has a risk.
THEY CAN BE PROBED!!


Because no-one fights wars in high-sec while using OGB alts. Roll

AGAIN PROBE THEM.
Zircon Dasher
#155 - 2013-06-21 22:26:44 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:

AGAIN PROBE THEM.


What good will probing them do if you cannot land on grid with them and it can take an hour (in a Dram) for you to even see them on your overview?

This is especially of interest in highsec (but also low, NPC 0.0, and to a limited extent Sov 0.0)

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#156 - 2013-06-21 22:28:01 UTC
Mistress Lilu wrote:
Evei Shard wrote:
Mistress Lilu wrote:
OGB has a risk.
THEY CAN BE PROBED!!


Because no-one fights wars in high-sec while using OGB alts. Roll

AGAIN PROBE THEM.


And do what, exactly?

They aren't a nice warm flashing red like the people you are busy losing against because the OGB pilot is in an NPC-corp.

Profit favors the prepared
Kewso
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-06-21 22:42:40 UTC
Ban Buffbots!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#158 - 2013-06-21 22:58:10 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Mistress Lilu wrote:

AGAIN PROBE THEM.


What good will probing them do if you cannot land on grid with them and it can take an hour (in a Dram) for you to even see them on your overview?

This is especially of interest in highsec (but also low, NPC 0.0, and to a limited extent Sov 0.0)


I've personally killed an "unprobeable" booster without such shenanigans.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Caldari Citizen 20120308
Doomheim
#159 - 2013-06-21 23:24:32 UTC
off grid for mining meh -- pvp no!

If your receiving boosts from another player, he/she should be on the battlefield.
AligatorVer1337
Hellvetics Trading
#160 - 2013-06-21 23:24:57 UTC
I personally think Boosters should be on grid as well as any other ship in the fleet. I can't believe that major idea behind command ships, with such good tank, was to hide them in a safe spot. This is for PvP.

As for Rorqual. I think the ISK would be worth more if the pilots actually have to work for it. Meaning organize mining ops with pvp back up fleet and scouts. This would also bring the fact into the discussion, that incursions for example are paid way to good. I think 'doing stuff'. I was shocked when i came back to see marketprices that high.

In my opinion, Boosters belong to the field just as any pvp, mining and support ship.