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Invention
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Snipzal
REVOLUTION 89
Fraternity.
#1 - 2013-06-20 10:10:12 UTC
So im a bit of a noob with invention and wondered if people could give me a pointer or two.

I have about 700 BPC's for Kestrels which i thought i might put to some use and invent them, i have mediocore skills in invention and have a few free pos slots so off i went.

Ive installed 14 invention jobs to make manticores, i have had two be successful.

This is financially unbenificial as its costing more for the datacores and bpc input than the chance of output. Where am i going wrong, should i be installing a kestrel in there too or am i just generally doing it wrong?
Wasilah
Little Red X
#2 - 2013-06-20 10:25:26 UTC
Snipzal wrote:
So im a bit of a noob with invention and wondered if people could give me a pointer or two.

I have about 700 BPC's for Kestrels which i thought i might put to some use and invent them, i have mediocore skills in invention and have a few free pos slots so off i went.

Ive installed 14 invention jobs to make manticores, i have had two be successful.

This is financially unbenificial as its costing more for the datacores and bpc input than the chance of output. Where am i going wrong, should i be installing a kestrel in there too or am i just generally doing it wrong?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2013-06-20 11:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013/05/23/manufacturing-201-tech-2/

http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/0/12032/-4/5/-4/5

Inventing Manticores, with /minimum/ skills, will have around a 30% success rate. And over the course of the 700 BPCs, you'd probably get close to that rate.

You would burn through a large quantity of datacores doing so.

Invention is profitable, but you need a lot of capital for the datacores, and there is always a risk involved.

You should end up with each Manticore BPC costing you around 1.4 million in datacores. But you'll need to do a lot of invention to hit those numbers. This is averages.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#4 - 2013-06-20 11:13:51 UTC
Run the numbers to see if using decryptors is worth it. It probably will be. And get the relevant skills (datacore skills plus encryption methods) to at least 3.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Oxide Ammar
#5 - 2013-06-20 11:53:46 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Run the numbers to see if using decryptors is worth it. It probably will be. And get the relevant skills (datacore skills plus encryption methods) to at least 3.


IMO, It's not worth it. Although Decryptors increasing your success chance in invention I only hear people using them in expensive inventions were you need actually higher success rate for JF, black ops, HACs, Marauders. Adding decryptors cost to the total invention job for T2 frigs is not feasible.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#6 - 2013-06-20 13:01:23 UTC
Use the program link in m sig to see if decryptors are worthwhile.

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Eric Raeder
No Fee Too High
#7 - 2013-06-20 13:55:49 UTC
Sigh. Why does every Tom, ****, and Harry who gets involved in industry insist on starting with ships. You tell people until you are blue in the face that ships are invariably high risk, high investment, low return, and something only the very experienced industrialist should think of touching with a 10 foot pole.

But no, people just don't listen. Why should I make drones or ammo or modules or rigs? Those things may make heaps of ISK, but they aren't SEXY, I've just gotsta make me some ships.
Snipzal
REVOLUTION 89
Fraternity.
#8 - 2013-06-20 14:45:03 UTC
Eric Raeder wrote:
Sigh. Why does every Tom, ****, and Harry who gets involved in industry insist on starting with ships. You tell people until you are blue in the face that ships are invariably high risk, high investment, low return, and something only the very experienced industrialist should think of touching with a 10 foot pole.

But no, people just don't listen. Why should I make drones or ammo or modules or rigs? Those things may make heaps of ISK, but they aren't SEXY, I've just gotsta make me some ships.


I was more thinking about what i see get used most in my main corp? and bombers are probably the highest usage.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#9 - 2013-06-20 14:50:46 UTC
Snipzal wrote:
Eric Raeder wrote:
Sigh. Why does every Tom, ****, and Harry who gets involved in industry insist on starting with ships. You tell people until you are blue in the face that ships are invariably high risk, high investment, low return, and something only the very experienced industrialist should think of touching with a 10 foot pole.

But no, people just don't listen. Why should I make drones or ammo or modules or rigs? Those things may make heaps of ISK, but they aren't SEXY, I've just gotsta make me some ships.


I was more thinking about what i see get used most in my main corp? and bombers are probably the highest usage.



How about the fittings for those bombers?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Ginger Barbarella
#10 - 2013-06-20 15:26:56 UTC
Lots of good info here for a starter already, but I'll add a couple quick points:

1) I never do Invention on anything unless the associated skills are at AT LEAST L4. My main invention alts have L5 in most of the relative skills for the invention jobs I tend to run/sell most.
2) When it's feasible for you, use meta -x- base items (not meta 0) with the invention job to help a little with the job. The base items I use are ALWAYS loot from missioning drops; I never buy or build base items for invention
3) Go here: Invention Chance Calculator

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Ginger Barbarella
#11 - 2013-06-20 15:28:42 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Snipzal wrote:
Eric Raeder wrote:
Sigh. Why does every Tom, ****, and Harry who gets involved in industry insist on starting with ships. You tell people until you are blue in the face that ships are invariably high risk, high investment, low return, and something only the very experienced industrialist should think of touching with a 10 foot pole.

But no, people just don't listen. Why should I make drones or ammo or modules or rigs? Those things may make heaps of ISK, but they aren't SEXY, I've just gotsta make me some ships.


I was more thinking about what i see get used most in my main corp? and bombers are probably the highest usage.



How about the fittings for those bombers?



Isn't it ironic how many starting out in this business go DIRECTLY to the LOW VOLUME items that make the LEAST isk for them, while completely ignoring the fittings that make these ships work in the first place? Lol I only do ships for myself; I make billions off modules for those ships. :)

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#12 - 2013-06-20 15:59:01 UTC
First of all with frigate invention, I suggest a small POS, as the invention time is twice as fast.
Second: Train those Caldari ship invention skills up to 4, all 3 of them to get the optimal skilltime to yield.
Third: Iv noticed a few oddball things about chances that are not chance based at all, Use an alt to turn the invention in, wait for margins on the item to fall on the markets, the chances strangely increase (the last one might be far off, but this is based on observation over quite a bit of time and many o many used datacores.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-06-20 16:51:03 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:

2) When it's feasible for you, use meta -x- base items (not meta 0) with the invention job to help a little with the job. The base items I use are ALWAYS loot from missioning drops; I never buy or build base items for invention


Don't do much invention, then? I bought 100 of Meta 4 named item X the other day. Would have taken me 20 years of level 4 missions to grind those out in loot!
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-06-20 21:42:47 UTC
Well since he gets them from missions they are FREE!
Right ?! Lol
Hoo Yodaad
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2013-06-20 23:05:02 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Lots of good info here for a starter already, but I'll add a couple quick points:

1) I never do Invention on anything unless the associated skills are at AT LEAST L4. My main invention alts have L5 in most of the relative skills for the invention jobs I tend to run/sell most.


For reference, increasing your relevant invention skills from 3 to 5 only increases your chance to succeed by ~4% for many common goods. Knowing that the invention cost is generally small compared to the total item cost, the change in overall build cost for many common items is ~1%.

Level 3 in your invention skills is plenty to get started.

Side note, ships are probably a bad place to learn to make things.
Ginger Barbarella
#16 - 2013-06-20 23:13:43 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:

2) When it's feasible for you, use meta -x- base items (not meta 0) with the invention job to help a little with the job. The base items I use are ALWAYS loot from missioning drops; I never buy or build base items for invention


Don't do much invention, then? I bought 100 of Meta 4 named item X the other day. Would have taken me 20 years of level 4 missions to grind those out in loot!


I know, reading comprehension is hard, right? Read it again.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#17 - 2013-06-21 01:13:10 UTC
In care it's not obvious, using the basic T1 item as a base item in invention is utterly pointless. It has no effect on the chance.

Thankfully, you don't need to use any item at all. It's entirely optional.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Haulie Berry
#18 - 2013-06-21 01:36:07 UTC
Kara Books wrote:

Third: Iv noticed a few oddball things about chances that are not chance based at all, Use an alt to turn the invention in, wait for margins on the item to fall on the markets, the chances strangely increase (the last one might be far off, but this is based on observation over quite a bit of time and many o many used datacores.


Also, for best results, all deliveries should be done at exactly 13:37 GMT on the first Tuesday after a full moon.
Haulie Berry
#19 - 2013-06-21 01:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Oh, I forgot:

UNLESS! It's a blue moon month, in which case you should wait until the exact moment the second full moon is at mid-sky.

Don't forget to cross your fingers before hitting the deliver button, and avoid any black cats for 24 hours beforehand, minimum.
Tydeth Gilitae
Magewright Artificers
#20 - 2013-06-21 05:41:29 UTC
Eric Raeder wrote:
Sigh. Why does every Tom, [Richard], and Harry who gets involved in industry insist on starting with ships. You tell people until you are blue in the face that ships are invariably high risk, high investment, low return, and something only the very experienced industrialist should think of touching with a 10 foot pole.

But no, people just don't listen. Why should I make drones or ammo or modules or rigs? Those things may make heaps of ISK, but they aren't SEXY, I've just gotsta make me some ships.


So as a newbie, I should not build ships with intent to sell, but rather to keep for my own use in mining or battle while I continue making ammunition to stock up newbie career station(s) and known major mission hubs like Arnon's SoE station, simply because ships' material cost relative to ammo, modules, drones, and rigs(?) makes their isk income less of an overall profit against both monetary and time investments to make the things. Am I reading this right?

I do know that Antimatter S sells quite well in the Gallente newbie hubs, as past production runs put up for sale have been completely depleted in a couple days; I'm guessing it'd also fare well in Caldari starters. Not sure how Amarr laser crystals do in terms of running out and needing more, when compared to missiles and bullets, or how even the non-"standard" ammo (defined as every type other than those given by tutorials to newbies) would do in the same stations; something for me to market research/test.
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