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Tracking Computer vs Web

Author
zatazon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-06-17 14:29:01 UTC  |  Edited by: zatazon
Which one of these makes more of a difference when using guns on smaller targets when using pulse lasers?

I have an alt that is more or less specialized in amarr ships only, I do enjoy the lasers and pretty lights shows in space. What I am wondering is for both pvp and pve which is better to utilize.

I currently use a geddon NI for mission running with a dual faction web and dual T2 TC and if I dual web a frig I can still pop it no prob right until it starts to orbit. Then I just fly straight away or towards it and have always been able to get hits on it that way. Currently using T1 pulse lasers on it.

I am working on increasing standing with a new corp and decided on a maller to run the lower lvl missions in. I opted to put a T2 web on it for if the frigs get in orbit, but I am finding with just a single web and T2 med pulses I am having issues hitting them still. Would I be better off putting a T2 TC on the maller or does it really not matter?



For the PvP portion, I have used mostly frigs and cruisers with lazors and have not really been in any fights where the target was significatly smaller than my ship. So I am also curious if say a TC is better for pve and web pvp or if the TC still has a place in pvp.

Thanks
-Zat

I do know that for both of them, the magic transversal number is 200ish. if its over 200 they prob wont hit and under almost always a hit.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-17 15:09:17 UTC
tracking computer can be changed to fit the situation, web only works on stuff that gets within 10k of you (14km for fed navy)
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#3 - 2013-06-17 17:27:01 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
tracking computer can be changed to fit the situation, web only works on stuff that gets within 10k of you (14km for fed navy)
Plus he's running Amarr, so that scorch is gonna reach out way farther than 14km.

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Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#4 - 2013-06-17 17:48:53 UTC
Within the range of the web, it will do more for you than a TC. Think about it--since a web reduces their speed by 60% or whatever, it's more than doubling your effective tracking against them, since they're orbiting at less than half their normal speed.

Outside of the web's range, obviously the web does nothing and the TC is better.
Kirkwood Ross
Golden Profession
#5 - 2013-06-17 17:49:19 UTC
It is situational. If you have a problem with ships within web range then the web will help both turrets and drones kill the target. If not, use tracking computers.
Whitehound
#6 - 2013-06-17 17:58:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
When you look at the formula for turret damage then you will see that transversal speed is being divided by tracking speed. Because webs reduce a target's speed (and thereby the transversal speed) by up to 60% and tracking computers increase your tracking speed by up to 30% are webs better than tracking computers.

In practise do webs not instantly slow a target to its new speed, you first need to catch it, and once caught may your ship need to adjust its own speed, and this difference takes time to come into effect. Tracking computers can work over a greater distance (the range of your weapons) than webs and give you an advantage sooner.

I could now tell you to use a tracking computer, but do not neglect the difference. This small difference is multiplied by the ratio of the signatures and the smaller a target is when compared to your guns the more this difference begins to matter. If you were then shooting with large weapons (400m weapon signature) at a frigate (40m signature) will it tenfold! So do not make the mistake of disregarding it as negligible.

Use a tracking computer for when your targets are not very small and you plan on using drones against the smallest ones. Use a web when you believe your survivability depends on it.

Edit:
Corrected the tracking speed gain to 30%. Not sure why I thought they would give a 50% bonus. Sorry.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

zatazon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-06-17 19:16:53 UTC
Thank you all for the replys and input.

It looks like I am gonna try to keep at least 1 web on the ships just due to the usefulness, but past that I think TC will be far more helpful.

Again thanks for the replys.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#8 - 2013-06-18 06:05:11 UTC
Don't forget that webs also give you range control or the ability to pin someone down when they might escape. Webs are generally awesome, even on kiting ships that try to stay out of web range you can use a web yourself, keep it on overheat and use it on things that approaching you to slow them down so that you can pull range before they can get on top of you (defensive web), on brawling ships it helps you keep the targets pinned and also increases the effectiveness of your weapons. I feel tracking computers are more for range or big fights where other people are going to tackle for your anyway.

For PvE you generally want TCs as most mission NPCs spawn far away and have an orbit that is outside web range, as for frigs that get under your guns, thats what drones are for.
Landorcan
Pub Rats
#9 - 2013-06-18 11:21:15 UTC
I personaly fly a ship that has no dronesso for me theres no options if they get inside the range of guns. I use a faction web with range of 15 k on my cruiser and 2 tcs giving me ability to deal with tracking disruption on those misions where they will nurf your ranges down as well as change up to track the odd wicked fast frigs that are in certain misions. Tc ability to extend my range on my pulses allows me to usualy tag and kill frigates at extreme long range before they get into that scram web danger zone. Being 4x and 5x webbed in a lvl 4 in a cruiser can be dealy so getting those out of the way at range is by far the best option. Just my 2 cents.
Onomerous
KARNAGE
Ghostbirds
#10 - 2013-06-18 13:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Whitehound wrote:
When you look at the formula for turret damagethen you will see that transversal speed is being divided by tracking speed. Because webs reduce a target's speed (and thereby the transversal speed) by up to 60% and tracking computers increase your tracking speed by up to 50% are webs slightly better than tracking computers.

In practise do webs not instantly slow a target to its new speed, you first need to catch it, and once caught may your ship need to adjust its own speed, and this difference takes time to come into effect. Tracking computers can work over a greater distance (the range of your weapons) than webs and give you an advantage sooner.

I could now tell you to use a tracking computer, but do not neglect the difference. This small difference is multiplied by the ratio of the signatures and the smaller a target is when compared to your guns the more this difference begins to matter. If you were then shooting with large weapons (400m weapon signature) at a frigate (40m signature) will it tenfold! So do not make the mistake of disregarding it as negligible.

Use a tracking computer for when your targets are not very small and you plan on using drones against the smallest ones. Use a web when you believe your survivability depends on it.


I have a question about that bold part. Mathematically (yes, I know) it does not matter if you divide first or multiply first. As such, I see people claim, "If the targets transversal is higher/faster than your tracking, you can't hit it". While in 'real life' that makes sense, there is nothing in any of the math formulas I have ever seen to indicate this is the case. The formula is simply an equation which gives a number at the end. You can make up for the lack of tracking by boosting other parts of the formula to overcome it. Does anyone have links to a formula/discussion showing: if your tracking is slower than transversal, you can't hit the target?

On a similar note, people often say painting a target to make it larger than the explosion radius of a missile is a waste. Mathematically there is nothing in the formulas to indicate this is the case. In 'real llife' that would seem to make sense but EVE is just spreadsheet game underneath the pretty ships.

I've tried testing to see but I've not been able to come up with tests which reliably hold all variables constant and only change one.

As far as which to use? I use webs and painters often as they helped everyone in the fleet. TC/TE/etc. only help one person. When you take the effects of multiple players using webs and painters on a target, TC/TE doesn't stack up well.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-06-18 13:11:28 UTC
multiple webs and painters will suffer diminishing returns.

Best scenario overall is just to have both.
Whitehound
#12 - 2013-06-18 16:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Onomerous wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
When you look at the formula for turret damagethen you will see that transversal speed is being divided by tracking speed. ...

I have a question about that bold part. Mathematically (yes, I know) it does not matter if you divide first or multiply first. As such, I see people claim, "If the targets transversal is higher/faster than your tracking, you can't hit it". While in 'real life' that makes sense, there is nothing in any of the math formulas I have ever seen to indicate this is the case. The formula is simply an equation which gives a number at the end. You can make up for the lack of tracking by boosting other parts of the formula to overcome it. Does anyone have links to a formula/discussion showing: if your tracking is slower than transversal, you can't hit the target?

On a similar note, people often say painting a target to make it larger than the explosion radius of a missile is a waste. Mathematically there is nothing in the formulas to indicate this is the case. In 'real llife' that would seem to make sense but EVE is just spreadsheet game underneath the pretty ships.

I've tried testing to see but I've not been able to come up with tests which reliably hold all variables constant and only change one.

As far as which to use? I use webs and painters often as they helped everyone in the fleet. TC/TE/etc. only help one person. When you take the effects of multiple players using webs and painters on a target, TC/TE doesn't stack up well.

Some players confuse transversal speed with angular velocity, because both speeds are closely related and behave similar. More accurate is to say that "when your tracking speed is less than a target's angular velocity will you miss it". You can turn on a column in the overview to see the angular velocity of other ships. The value has got the same unit as the tracking speed of turrets (rad per second) and you can directly compare both and thereby know how close you are to missing a target.
It is however not quite this simple, because the formula always accounts for the ratio of weapon signature and target signature. So when you compare your turrets' tracking speed with a target's angular velocity will you see misses occur sooner for small targets, while for bigger targets will it take longer. Still, the overview column is quite useful for flying turret ships and for knowing how close one is to crossing from hits into misses.

The transversal speed itself is the speed of a ship as perceived by you from your view point and is nothing more than its angular velocity multiplied with its distance. If you put this into the formula then the part with "transversal speed / (range * tracking speed)" will turn into a simple "angular velocity / tracking speed".
When both are somewhat equal, meaning you are just about to cross from hits into misses, will their division result in a number close to 1. If you ignore the rest of the formula for a moment and simply take 0.5 to the power of 1 do you get 0.5, meaning, you get a 50:50-chance to hit it in such a situation. Improving your tracking then means the division will yield a smaller number, one less than 1, and taken as the power of 0.5 will result in a better chance for you to hit the ship. The line between hit and miss is not a sharp cut as you might expect it, but a smooth curve and taken to the power of 2, which it does, makes a bit steeper.

I do not want to discuss the formula any further, because it seems to be based on a statistical approach and may possibly originate from dice rolls. CCP can tell you more. If I am not mistake did EVE start as a board game?! ... Anyhow, it mimics physics sufficiently enough for us to have fun with it. The result of the formula is used in combination with a random number generator and in a certain random event is the formula being ignored - the wrecking hit - and you will do a hit despite all physics.
Just remind yourself of math being a tool, one used to describe nature but one that can be used to describe something imaginary, too. Discussing the formula would be like discussing the beauty of one of the ship models.

I have not had a look at the missile formulas for a while, so I cannot say much about it, but they too are approximations. When players talk in absolutes then do not measure too much accuracy to it. All they are saying is that a 3.089% chance of doing damage just is simply not enough for them, or that doing 97.9% of a theoretical maximum is as good as the 100%. Do not discard such statements instantly as false. They can contain experience and wisdom.

Edit:
I have found a good 3D plotter on the Internet and used it to create three images to describe the hit'n'miss chance as a 3D function. On one axis is the angular velocity of the ship you are shooting at, the second axis describes the tracking speed of your guns and the z-axis shows the percentage of the hit'n'miss chance. The colours symbolize 0% (red), 50% (yellow) and 100% (green).

What one can see in the pictures is that for a battleship shooting at a battleship does the tracking need to match the angular velocity. The yellow area (50%-chance) is exactly there where both values equal each other:

Battleship shooting at a battleship

For a battleship shooting at a cruiser (400m weapons shooting at a 150m signature) does the tracking speed of the BS need to be about 2.7 times better than the angular velocity of the cruiser (400 / 150 = 2.666):

Battleship shooting at a cruiser

And for a battleship shooting at a frigate (400m versus 40m) does its tracking speed need to be 10 times better than the angular velocity:

Battleship shooting at a frigate

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Whitehound
#13 - 2013-06-19 09:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Because the 3D plotter was so pretty did I create some more images of the formula to show the differences between a 60% web, a 37.5% target painter and a 30% tracking computer:

Battleship shooting at a battleship
Battleship shooting at a cruiser
Battleship shooting at a frigate

The images are animated GIFs (2s delay between frames) to make a comparison between the three modules easier. The colours mean the same as before and represent the hit'n'miss chance: 100% (green), 50% (yellow), 0% (red).

I hope this illustrates the hit'n'miss-chance and helps to understand the formula.

As complicated as the formula seems does it only describe a straight but blurry line (the line of the 50:50-chance), which separates hits from misses. This line can be shifted by simple factors such as a change to your tracking speed, a change to a target's signature or a target's speed, or your own ship's speed or your distance to the target. So when you increase a target's signature by 30% has this the same effect on your hit'n'miss-chance as if you were 30% further away from it, or if you had increased your tracking by 30% or as if your ship could fly 30% faster. How useful a module is then depends on how soon you can make use of it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-06-19 18:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Freighdee Katt
TLDR: To hit small things with big guns or dictate range with close range weapons against all targets, use webs. To stretch your applied damage curve where you are using long range weapons and can't or don't need to dictate range, use TCs.

If you want to shoot elite frigates with large guns, then dual webs will let you hit them; TCs will not.

You can load up dual faction webs and an AB, and Dual 425mm AC IIs, get into web range of the frigs (assuming they are ones that will get that close to you), then hit the webs, keep at range 13km, and pop them in one or two shots. TCs alone, without webs, will not let you pull this trick in any setup with large guns.

Basically webs let you dictate range, assuming that you can catch the target and your normal speed is greater than that of any webbed or dual webbed thing you plan to shoot. Because they let you dictate range, they also let you dictate angular velocity, since NPCs will continue blindly trying to orbit at their optimal, even when they are webbed down to the point where that is impossible. So if you are faster and you set your own orbit or keep at range <= 14km, you can force their angular to 0 at will.

Dual TCs with tracking speed scripts in an arty setup might let you snipe some otherwise unsnipeable small targets at range, where they already have low transversal, but that's about it.

If you are shooting BCs and battleships, then webs and (speed scripted) TCs both will add little, because you're already hitting close to full damage, and the speed and tracking just aren't an issue. In that case, webs can help you keep large targets that like to orbit at 50km+ in your optimal instead, assuming that you have a prop mod to catch them and close range weapons with an optimal that is inside web range. TCs, on the other hand, also can buff your optimal range, and in cases where you can't dictate range, this lets you increase your applied DPS, assuming you are using long range weapons with an optimal long enough to matter.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?

Whitehound
#15 - 2013-06-19 18:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
From tracking to hit quality.

This picture illustrates how the hit'n'miss-chance from tracking is used in determining the hit quality and thereby the damage amount.

At the bottom are 4 samples, which show the damage variations across a range of tracking situations and how the damage slowly decreases before actual misses occur.

What is not show in the picture are the wrecking hits. These do not follow any pattern besides being completely random. These cannot be influenced by any means (afaik) and have a fixed 1%-chance to occur at any time, which is why they are not included here in the picture.

If a turret would do 100 points damage, then the damage values that one can expect to see are as follows.

For the first sample with a tracking of 8x or higher than required (outer left):
300 for wrecking hits, 150-50 for normal hits, no misses.

The second sample with a tracking of 2x-3x higher than required (inner left):
300 for wrecking hits, 125-50 for normal hits, no misses when turrets are grouped, rare misses with a single turret.

The third sample with a tracking of just about of what is required (inner right):
300 for wrecking hits, 100-50 for normal hits, rare misses when turrets are grouped, regular misses with a single turret.

The fourth sample with a tracking below of what is required (outer right):
300 for wrecking hits, regular misses even when turrets are grouped, always misses with a single turret.

What is noteworthy is that one can be fooled by grouped turrets and the occasional wrecking hits into thinking that one is already doing the maximum in DPS when in fact one can increase it further by increasing the number of the highest, non-wrecking hits through increased tracking or other means like a web or only good piloting.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.

Whitehound
#16 - 2013-06-21 11:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
I could not stop playing around with the 3D plotter. Let me know when it is too much.

DPS projection

To illustrate how tracking, optimal range and falloff combined make up for the DPS did I create an animated GIF (3s per frame). It shows the DPS projection around a ship for 2 dimensions (DPS is the third dimension) and for different types of turrets / ammos. The values for optimal and falloff should explain themselves. The value for misses is the distance at which misses occur and changes with each frame (1km, 2km and 5km distance).

Again, no wrecking hits included, because these only add a small, fixed amount to the DPS amount. Also the difference in DPS for the actual variations of turret and ammo types are not shown here. Usually, the longer the range of a weapon is the less damage it produces and some ammo types can change the tracking of a turret.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.