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Make Faction Weapons Useful
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Trajan Al'Thor
Rent -IS- Due
NeighbourRoach.
#61 - 2013-06-18 19:35:01 UTC
IMHO
Faction guns, no t2 ammo, price reduced to 3x t2. Some sort of bonus to range, probably falloff.
Officer guns, t2 ammo
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-06-18 21:33:11 UTC
Trajan Al'Thor wrote:
IMHO
Faction guns, no t2 ammo, price reduced to 3x t2. Some sort of bonus to range, probably falloff.
Officer guns, t2 ammo

Yeah cept no one really uses officer guns. Now can you really make an argument for why someone who has the flexibility of picking different ammo types with T2 guns would settle for something many times the price that cannot even do what a T2 weapon can do? Its ridiculous.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-06-18 22:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246984&find=unread I brought this up in the market discussions room. I agree that the problem is LP/tag bottlenecks.

I'm surprised nobody has made the comparison yet to faction hulls. Yes they often are a bit more expensive than t2, but they aren't as specialized, and it's nowhere near as expensive as faction weapons are.

What might be interesting could be a sort of set bonus for using multiples of them or giving role bonuses or 'synergy bonuses' for different ones. Republic fleet launchers could have an explosive missile bonus, dread guristas and Caldari launcher have a bonus to their faction missile damage and additional bonuses if on faction ship hulls. Other variants might favor fitting over damage or role bonuses.

It seems like for most turrets there are storyline versions, then faction versions for each one. I really like the idea of bonusing them on faction ships. Domination turrets on angel ships, fleet turrets on firetails...
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-06-19 01:20:19 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
the bottleneck is not the drop rate but which tags are required for which things. Large guns require the same tags as medium guns and small guns require the same tags as the universally useable modules such as sensor boosters and tracking computers.

were they adjusted to require tags specific to the module "size" faction weapons would become more common and the price would drop.

some modules like armor and shield resistance boosters dont have a size and thus ought to require more specialized tags or tags separate from the weapons and classed modules.

reducing the tag numbers required for redemption would do some of the same thing, but would only lower the prices for universal modules and not the specialized ones.


I think the bottleneck is both.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Pan Dora
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-06-19 02:53:03 UTC
Let me add my 0,02 ISK

0,01-> To me what its really wrong with the balance of modules its the fact that meta 5 its always much more skill intensive than any other option while, in most cases, it don't give any particular advantage over anything else. Weapons are a notable exception*.
On top of that meta 5 tend to be hard to fit and cap hungry.
To change it to a situation that make more sense** or all meta 6 and higher modules must be like meta 5 when it comes to skill requirements (imagine the tears) or give every single meta 5 module a distinguish advantage over anything else (good luck for devs figuring out what)

0,02->Maybe CCP would kill some modules tiers in a similar way they killed ship tiers. Actually there is very little reason to use a meta 2 instead of meta 3 item, that would be different if instead we had one with better fitting other with better performance.

*cov cloak also have a particular advantage while the Improved just fall in general case. I don't recall any other.

**its a game, don't need to make sense.

-CCP would boost ECM so it also block the ability of buthurt posting.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-06-19 06:33:37 UTC
Pan Dora wrote:
Let me add my 0,02 ISK

0,01-> To me what its really wrong with the balance of modules its the fact that meta 5 its always much more skill intensive than any other option while, in most cases, it don't give any particular advantage over anything else. Weapons are a notable exception*.


Meta 5 hardeners are significantly better than meta1-4. Same for resist amps and EANMs, damage controls, etc. The list of meta4 items that are as good as Meta 5 is rather limited.
I think its limited to non-energized adaptive nano-plating, shield power relays, target painters, and tracking computers (although in this case, T2 does have the bonus of using less cap).
T2 ABs are faster, T2 MWDs have a lower cap penalty, etc.
This point of yours is rubbish.

Quote:
On top of that meta 5 tend to be hard to fit and cap hungry.
To change it to a situation that make more sense** or all meta 6 and higher modules must be like meta 5 when it comes to skill requirements (imagine the tears) or give every single meta 5 module a distinguish advantage over anything else (good luck for devs figuring out what)

Umm, why? thats one of the appeals of faction stuff: paying to bypass skill reqs. T2 ships are harder to skill into than pirate ships, and as already noted, in the vast majority of cases, meta 5 >> meta 4.

Quote:
0,02->Maybe CCP would kill some modules tiers in a similar way they killed ship tiers. Actually there is very little reason to use a meta 2 instead of meta 3 item, that would be different if instead we had one with better fitting other with better performance.

cost - or should we tiericide everything, and have officer stuff be balanced with meta 4 and faction.
Gankers will often not use meta 4, or even meta 3, due to cost considerations.

Quote:
*cov cloak also have a particular advantage while the Improved just fall in general case. I don't recall any other.

If moving 2.5x as fast while cloaked isn't enough of an advantage, then consider its lower scan res and retargeting delay.

I've jumped into low sec gate camps with a cloak on a small frigate, and I was glad I was plodding along at 25% speed (roughly 125 m/s) instead of 10% speed (50 m/s). They had some ships flying around trying to decloak me, and they got very close, I was having to move to avoid them (they got within 3.5 km)

Your arguments are bad and you should feel bad
Trajan Al'Thor
Rent -IS- Due
NeighbourRoach.
#67 - 2013-06-19 15:46:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Trajan Al'Thor
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Trajan Al'Thor wrote:
IMHO
Faction guns, no t2 ammo, price reduced to 3x t2. Some sort of bonus to range, probably falloff.
Officer guns, t2 ammo

Yeah cept no one really uses officer guns. Now can you really make an argument for why someone who has the flexibility of picking different ammo types with T2 guns would settle for something many times the price that cannot even do what a T2 weapon can do? Its ridiculous.

I just said price REDUCED to 3x t2. So about 10 mil each. Some small bonus to falloff or optimal. Equal damage to a T2 weapon without specialization 5. Maybe spec 3-4.
Also, forgot, lower fitting requirements.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-06-19 23:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorgoth24
Making faction guns the premier PvE weapons I could go for.

But I don't like the idea of faction guns being superior to T2 in raw dps. Equal to, yes. Better fitting? Better tracking? But DPS and Range should be left alone, imo
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2013-06-21 01:01:34 UTC
Trajan Al'Thor wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Trajan Al'Thor wrote:
IMHO
Faction guns, no t2 ammo, price reduced to 3x t2. Some sort of bonus to range, probably falloff.
Officer guns, t2 ammo

Yeah cept no one really uses officer guns. Now can you really make an argument for why someone who has the flexibility of picking different ammo types with T2 guns would settle for something many times the price that cannot even do what a T2 weapon can do? Its ridiculous.

I just said price REDUCED to 3x t2. So about 10 mil each. Some small bonus to falloff or optimal. Equal damage to a T2 weapon without specialization 5. Maybe spec 3-4.
Also, forgot, lower fitting requirements.


so for all people with specialization 5 (aka the people who have money and want to invest in better weapons) these weapons are still useless. When you modify something it's silly to penalize people for having more training than others. Why are you so concerned with the faction weapons having more damage? As it was already stated numerous times, the faction equipment that fits better but functions worse is not used. I have no problem paying 300 mill for a set of faction launchers if they add 100 or so dps to my tengu. Cost simply augments the uselessness of the faction weapons; the root of the problem is that they are terrible compared to ordinary T2.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-06-23 23:46:54 UTC
bump

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Manfred Hideous
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2013-06-23 23:57:33 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Ridic Poison wrote:
in guns it goes t1>faction>t2>officer



you get more dps out of faction then t1 and they take the same skill to use. t2 take more skills to use and are better for that reason if you want to make faction guns strong then you will need to add more skill req to use to balance it out.


I'm fine with that. A faction heavy missile launcher cost upward 60 mill last I checked. Just how many noobs are going to take advantage of the slightly better than T1 dps at that price tag? Faction stuff is bling. It should be useful bling. Besides, faction ballistics are better than T2 yet have the skill requirements of T1 ballistics. So why is every 10 day old character not sporting CNB? Cost of course. They cost 100 million apiece. My change just makes more faction stuff useful. Seriously. Just how many people do you see using CNML?


The ridiculous cost is what makes them worthless. Rather than making them T-2 light, the tag requirements should be cut drastically. Noobs would be able to afford them if they are good savers and it wouldn't dumpster the T-2 guns.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#72 - 2013-06-24 00:18:09 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why?

Train T2s to use T2 ammo.


This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little.


You get more dps when using faction ammo, than t2. You lose out on the t2 damage bonus, but you also dont get the t2 damage penalty.

This is the reason you see massively pimped tengus with CN launchers (that and fitting requirements)
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-06-24 00:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Vassal Zeren
Michael Harari wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Why?

Train T2s to use T2 ammo.


This would make Faction weapons better than T2. Which is as it should be. As it is there is no point to faction weaponry because you get less dps. Now you could get more. There would be an extra level to achieve when pimping a ship a little.


You get more dps when using faction ammo, than t2. You lose out on the t2 damage bonus, but you also dont get the t2 damage penalty.

This is the reason you see massively pimped tengus with CN launchers (that and fitting requirements)


Uhh that is false. With T2 launchers and Furies on an rr tengu you get about 550 dps (with CN BCU's). With faction launchers and faction missiles and cn-bcus' you get 487dps.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-07-18 19:29:15 UTC
Bump for Odyssey 1.1

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.