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Why are Faction Module LP Prices so high?
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Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-06-11 12:58:10 UTC
This is really about faction module market elasticity...

Medium Shield Booster II - 640,000 ISK
Caldari Navy Medium Shield Booster - 100,000,000 ISK (40,500 LP + ~45 million ISK in tags)

Bonus Difference:
-8% PG requirement
-38% CPU requirement
+25% Capacity requirement
+25% HP/s shield boost

I get that what CAUSES the high price is the opporunity cost of LP. The greatest supply of LP that would go toward anything Caldari Navy would come from the high supply of LP flowing from faction warfare. And since most smart FW min/maxers shoot for LP/isk value of AT LEAST 800 isk/LP, this means that the lowest price that this Meta 9 MS Booster could get is ~75 million ISK each. So players have to pay more than 100x the value of the normal module for just a +25% bonus?

Don't get me wrong, I GET that getting marginal benefits should be significantly costly, but I don't know what I think about 100x as costly...I'm not complaining as a person who wants to buy the module, but as a person who wants to see more pvp variety, dynamic marketplaces (and a little more isk coming into FW).

IMO: You could get a greater demand for A LOT of faction modules by reducing their LP cost by >50%, and their tag cost by 25%-50%. I would then expect their usage to go up at least 2x as much, also increasing the ISK sink into LP stores. Overall costs would drop by 50% or so, but profits for missioners and FW pilots would stay the same, and if anything encourage picking up more tags.





Other data:
<10 Caldari Navy Medium Shield Boosters are sold in JIta each day (1 billion isk market)
>400 Medium Shield Booster II's are sold in Jita each day (1/4 billion isk market and about another 1/4 from other <5 metas)
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#2 - 2013-06-11 13:26:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
as long as you stay in the tens of millions, the module is still a bad choice for disposable pvp ships. thus, there is hardly a point in lowering the price because the volume will not rise significantly. also, active shield tanks are not exactly popular in the first place (unless it's ASBs) so in this particular case, the change would be even less relevant.

there may or may not be a valid point in adjusting the prices of more popular modules like hardeners, webs etc. but frankly, FW is profitable enough already.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-06-11 13:36:00 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
as long as you stay in the tens of millions, the module is still a bad choice for disposable pvp ships. thus, there is hardly a point in lowering the price because the volume will not rise significantly. also, active shield tanks are not exactly popular in the first place (unless it's ASBs) so in this particular case, the change would be even less relevant.

there may or may not be a valid point in adjusting the prices of more popular modules like hardeners, webs etc. but frankly, FW is profitable enough already.


I hear your point here, and I was thinking about something well below 50% reduction, but I thought it might sound extreme, and it'd be hard for the markets to adjust in a healthy way right away for that kind of change. My thinking though is that T2 hulls should be dropping by 25% or even more in the next few months, and if there could be an evolution more towards a T2+faction mods meta that could really change the marketplace and pvp up in a fun way.
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
#4 - 2013-06-14 09:17:54 UTC
Why should CCP award undeserving gameplay that is FW farming? It's a zero skill activity mostly farmed by bots, orbiting PLex's all day should return **** poor ISK.

Null sec & low sec explorers however should get a good isk on their Pirate shield boosters, because you know risk & all. You can't farm a 7/10 with 5 warp stabs like you can in FW.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#5 - 2013-06-14 13:06:10 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
as long as you stay in the tens of millions, the module is still a bad choice for disposable pvp ships. thus, there is hardly a point in lowering the price because the volume will not rise significantly. also, active shield tanks are not exactly popular in the first place (unless it's ASBs) so in this particular case, the change would be even less relevant.

there may or may not be a valid point in adjusting the prices of more popular modules like hardeners, webs etc. but frankly, FW is profitable enough already.


I hear your point here, and I was thinking about something well below 50% reduction, but I thought it might sound extreme, and it'd be hard for the markets to adjust in a healthy way right away for that kind of change. My thinking though is that T2 hulls should be dropping by 25% or even more in the next few months, and if there could be an evolution more towards a T2+faction mods meta that could really change the marketplace and pvp up in a fun way.


Now go to the marketplace and check out the trade in the dread guristas medium shield booster.

ie for most faction modules the function of the LP store is to cap the price of the item (or its cut/n/paste pirate equivalent), not to floor it.
Grandma Squirel
#6 - 2013-06-14 15:34:19 UTC
Medium Shield Boosters are a bad example for this. The only things that use faction or higher medium shield boosters are PvE T3s (Tengu mostly). The point of comparison is less between the CN Booster an T2, and more between the CN booster and a C-Type. The CN Booster provides 97% the shield output of a Gistum C-Type, at less then half the cost. (though for a lot more cap). All reducing the price of the booster would do is benefit PvE users by reducing the replacement cost of thier tengus. Even at 10m each, no one would use them in PvP.

Generally speaking, proceeding past T2 performance results in an exponential increase in cost, which is a good thing. An Extra 25% shield boost is a HUGE deal in if your in a small fight. Going from 91% to 93.5% omni resist by using faction or deadspace modules is a even bigger deal.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#7 - 2013-06-14 19:09:52 UTC
Two problems,

1) FW causing LP to flow like water.

2) CCP really needs to re weight the stupid LP stores with something resembling a market reaction, items that are only very rarely purchesed need to come down in price and ones over used need to go up in price. So that the market will even out the items over a couple month period, rahter than some items being way to expensive compred to thier substitutes.
Grandma Squirel
#8 - 2013-06-14 19:49:15 UTC
Airto TLA wrote:
Two problems,

1) FW causing LP to flow like water.

2) CCP really needs to re weight the stupid LP stores with something resembling a market reaction, items that are only very rarely purchesed need to come down in price and ones over used need to go up in price. So that the market will even out the items over a couple month period, rahter than some items being way to expensive compred to thier substitutes.


#2 is a really good idea. May be a bit problematic with how many LP stores there are. I would be worried though that you may get some rather drastic ossicilations on prices based on the low volumes and the feedback mechanics.
Syrk
Caldari Militia Supply Corps
#9 - 2013-06-14 20:01:22 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:

And since most smart FW min/maxers shoot for LP/isk value of AT LEAST 800 isk/LP . . .


I would say it's more like 1,000 isk/LP at the bare minimum.

0Lona 0ltor wrote:

Why should CCP award undeserving gameplay that is FW farming? It's a zero skill activity mostly farmed by bots, orbiting PLex's all day should return **** poor ISK.

Null sec & low sec explorers however should get a good isk on their Pirate shield boosters, because you know risk & all. You can't farm a 7/10 with 5 warp stabs like you can in FW.


Huh? The only race that has been able to get away with farming is the Minnies, since for a long time the Amarr militia decided to lay down and die.

I don't run into bots ever while plexing, and it's not risk free at all, especially against the Galls who are blobarrific.

Airto TLA wrote:

Two problems,

1) FW causing LP to flow like water.

2) CCP really needs to re weight the stupid LP stores with something resembling a market reaction, items that are only very rarely purchesed need to come down in price and ones over used need to go up in price. So that the market will even out the items over a couple month period, rahter than some items being way to expensive compred to thier substitutes.


1. If that were true, then we wouldn't be talking about Navy modules being too expensive.

2. You can see the market reaction to the LP stores . . . . in the Market. When people spend LP, they are careful to do so in the most profitable way possible. The best isk/LP ratios will be the most bought, filling whatever happens to be in highest demand. As demand shifts, players then spend their LP elsewhere, to satisfy the new fad. So low demand items (implants) are cheap and rarely produced, and high demand items (ships) are constantly produced yet remain at a fairly high price.
Doctor Zoe
Spatial Enterprises
#10 - 2013-06-15 07:29:38 UTC
Too long to see 
Full-time inventor.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#11 - 2013-06-17 22:14:01 UTC
Syrk wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:

And since most smart FW min/maxers shoot for LP/isk value of AT LEAST 800 isk/LP . . .


I would say it's more like 1,000 isk/LP at the bare minimum.

0Lona 0ltor wrote:

Why should CCP award undeserving gameplay that is FW farming? It's a zero skill activity mostly farmed by bots, orbiting PLex's all day should return **** poor ISK.

Null sec & low sec explorers however should get a good isk on their Pirate shield boosters, because you know risk & all. You can't farm a 7/10 with 5 warp stabs like you can in FW.


Huh? The only race that has been able to get away with farming is the Minnies, since for a long time the Amarr militia decided to lay down and die.

I don't run into bots ever while plexing, and it's not risk free at all, especially against the Galls who are blobarrific.

Airto TLA wrote:

Two problems,

1) FW causing LP to flow like water.

2) CCP really needs to re weight the stupid LP stores with something resembling a market reaction, items that are only very rarely purchesed need to come down in price and ones over used need to go up in price. So that the market will even out the items over a couple month period, rahter than some items being way to expensive compred to thier substitutes.


1. If that were true, then we wouldn't be talking about Navy modules being too expensive.

2. You can see the market reaction to the LP stores . . . . in the Market. When people spend LP, they are careful to do so in the most profitable way possible. The best isk/LP ratios will be the most bought, filling whatever happens to be in highest demand. As demand shifts, players then spend their LP elsewhere, to satisfy the new fad. So low demand items (implants) are cheap and rarely produced, and high demand items (ships) are constantly produced yet remain at a fairly high price.


1) Anything that can be bought in a LP store is in trouble since they have an advantage and drive the market.

2) Some items are worth it to produce/buy , because the overall effeciency delta is high enough that they will get used so price does not matter, then it becomes a matter of how incoveniant the item is to buy/produce to get you LP ratio. However, some items make no sense, since they have signiifcant costs to buy in addition to LP and the delta between them and Tech 2 is small or nonexistantt. So in this cases LP ratio may actually be negative (you lose money on the transaction)
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#12 - 2013-06-19 19:12:19 UTC
Its like chosing between Caviar over fish, if you can afford it, you eat it.

Now if you made Caviar more affordable then fish, millions of fishermen would lose their jobs.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-06-19 20:00:17 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
Its like chosing between Caviar over fish, if you can afford it, you eat it.

Now if you made Caviar more affordable then fish, millions of fishermen would lose their jobs.


Not exactly. For every faction mod sold, there must be a meta 1 module sold. If this would do anything, it might reduce the value of meta 2&3 modules some more.