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[OPURE] Inquiry on the Sanctity of Flesh

Author
Namara
Order of Purity
#1 - 2013-06-15 01:25:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Namara
The Sanctity of Flesh

The Order of Purity has been asked to investigate the Amarr tradition of the sanctity of flesh. Why is flesh sacred? What should the consequences for breaking with this tradition. What is the origin of the tradition? In what direction is the tradition developing?

These are relevant and important questions, especially considering recent events like increase in clone usage among capsuleers and now among ground assault forces.

The Order of Purity invites scholars, learned men, priests and other capsuleers who think they can provide a constructive contribution to this issue to report their opinions to the Order, either directly or by means of posting a message here on the IGS. The Order will gather evidence and hear opinions and use those to present their findings at a special symposium to be held at a later date.

Of course, if there are Amarr or other interested capsuleers here who don't know yet about this tradition, and would like to be informed, please do no hesitate to ask questions.

About us: The Order of Purity's charter is education, indoctrination and arbitration. The Order of Purity strives to clarify and uphold Amarr traditions, strengthen capsuleer loyalty to the Empire and mediate in conflicts between loyalist capsuleers.

Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#2 - 2013-06-15 01:41:31 UTC
Two reasons:

A soul can only pass to the afterlife once. Though the nature of the soul has remained a hotly debated topic in Amarr theology for millennia, one common interpretation is that only the original body of a person is the vessel of their soul, and when that body dies the soul passes on. Any clones of that person would be soulless and thus unable to commune with God. Holders of royal blood are expected to be prepared to take on the role of Voice of God. It is the duty of the Emperor to interpret and convey the will of God, and thus a cloned under this interpretation could not fulfill the duties of the Emperor.

Cloned royals would stymie the pace of progression. The Empire is very carefully constructed with institutions serving to maintain stability and continuity. Throne pretenders are eliminated in the shatol'syn, the executive powers of the throne are restricted by official and unofficial bodies, all to eliminate the risks of dramatic upheaval from generation to generation. However, the Empire still needs change, and change comes with death and succession. If royals are allowed to clone, pretenders may linger and grow powerful, Emperors can reign indefinitely, and the Empire grows static and unstable.

Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-06-15 02:02:12 UTC
Captain Caul has summed it up so clearly and well, I don't have anything to add. Then again, I'm a soldier, so I guess it's logical that I can't add more to what he said.

I don't think it's an official reason in any way, but I do believe that the sanctity of flesh also reminds those in power the price that power comes attached to. If you want to be Emperor, you have to be willing to risk your life, if you want to be Holder you must be willing to accept your end will come eventually. But, as I said, it's just my vision of the issue, not something taken out of the Scriptures or political books.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#4 - 2013-06-15 03:31:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
The flesh we were born with is flesh made by God. The flesh of clones is flesh made by man. Only God is Divine, and so only His creations are Divine. The creations of man will always pale before the creations of God.

No more clear is this than in the soul. Man cannot create a soul, and it is wishful thinking, if not outright heresy, to believe that the Divine soul migrates from the Divine flesh created by God to the cloned flesh made by man. Clones are duplicates. A scan, an electronic photograph, is made of their brain pattern, and that scan is then mimiced onto the formless brain of the clone. Nothing from the original is transferred, only the legacy. Why should we believe that the soul, of all things, would pass from the original body to the clone body when nothing else does? Afterall, it is certainly possible to have two clones of the same person at the same time, the only thing preventing this is law. How can one believe the soul transfers from the original to the clone, when the only thing preventing hundreds of simultaneous clones of the same person is bureaucratic policy?

When we die, our soul goes to God for final judgment. Any clone left behind is a manmade simulacrum, not a Divine creature of God, and so cannot possess a soul. If it does possess one, it is only a manmade byproduct with no Divine presence, and therefore almost certainly unworthy of God.
Arkady Vachon
The Gold Angels
Sixth Empire
#5 - 2013-06-15 06:15:27 UTC
I can live with being a soulless clone, it's actually quite liberating.

Nothing Personal - Just Business...

Chaos Creates Content

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#6 - 2013-06-15 08:27:22 UTC
The doctrine came about as a result of the works of Saint Articus.

There were probably reasons such as the Mad Emperor Zaragram. Clones would mean having to assassinate a madman several times, instead of just once.

The tradition is heading into history, as the wave after wave of unrighteous foreigners hurl themselves at the Empire. Without clones, the Empire would be worn down by this flood of cloned heathens.

Now then, capsuleers, well. A semi-immortal creature, that does the work of God ? well, that's an angel, no? And if the creature decides to do the work of the Deceiver, then they're a demon, no?

So, Angel or Demon. Which are you ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#7 - 2013-06-15 08:38:42 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Now then, capsuleers, well. A semi-immortal creature, that does the work of God ? well, that's an angel, no? And if the creature decides to do the work of the Deceiver, then they're a demon, no?


Capsuleers are neither angles or demons, nor are they immortal. They are human. Less than human, really, once cloned.
Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#8 - 2013-06-15 08:54:25 UTC
Namara wrote:


The Order of Purity has been asked to investigate the Amarr tradition of the sanctity of flesh.


By whom?

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Namara
Order of Purity
#9 - 2013-06-15 09:33:03 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
Two reasons:

A soul can only pass to the afterlife once. Though the nature of the soul has remained a hotly debated topic in Amarr theology for millennia, one common interpretation is that only the original body of a person is the vessel of their soul, and when that body dies the soul passes on. Any clones of that person would be soulless and thus unable to commune with God. Holders of royal blood are expected to be prepared to take on the role of Voice of God. It is the duty of the Emperor to interpret and convey the will of God, and thus a cloned under this interpretation could not fulfill the duties of the Emperor.


Scholar Caul,

Thank you for your answer. It raises several questions that maybe you or someone else can answer:

1. If there was a way to transfer one's consciousness between one's original body and a clone, would such a transfer violate the sanctity of flesh?

2. If one cannot communicate with God when one becomes soulless if the sanctity of flesh is violated, can one notice this loss of communication?

3. You say that this ability to communicate thought one's soul is essential to those who might one day become Emperor. Is it not essential to other professions? Would you say one could be a priest without this ability? Is it possible to be a faithful without having this communication available?

About us: The Order of Purity's charter is education, indoctrination and arbitration. The Order of Purity strives to clarify and uphold Amarr traditions, strengthen capsuleer loyalty to the Empire and mediate in conflicts between loyalist capsuleers.

Namara
Order of Purity
#10 - 2013-06-15 09:50:09 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
The doctrine came about as a result of the works of Saint Articus.

There were probably reasons such as the Mad Emperor Zaragram. Clones would mean having to assassinate a madman several times, instead of just once.

The tradition is heading into history, as the wave after wave of unrighteous foreigners hurl themselves at the Empire. Without clones, the Empire would be worn down by this flood of cloned heathens.


Scholar Valate, that is an interesting opinion. For you I also have a few questions:

1. Since Emperor Zaragram lived many centuries and our people only received the ability to clone some 11 years ago and the origin of the tradition is preventing proliferation of clones, how old is the tradition?

Valerie Valate wrote:

Now then, capsuleers, well. A semi-immortal creature, that does the work of God ? well, that's an angel, no? And if the creature decides to do the work of the Deceiver, then they're a demon, no?

So, Angel or Demon. Which are you ?


2. So, the ability to have some form of immortality mimics the traditional attributes of Angels too much to be considered without sin? Is it fair to say that an immortal form is held to be exclusive to the direct servants of God (Angels) and those who adopt this ability without him granting it directly can be termed Demons? Or can capsuleers be Angels without too?

About us: The Order of Purity's charter is education, indoctrination and arbitration. The Order of Purity strives to clarify and uphold Amarr traditions, strengthen capsuleer loyalty to the Empire and mediate in conflicts between loyalist capsuleers.

Namara
Order of Purity
#11 - 2013-06-15 09:50:49 UTC
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Namara wrote:


The Order of Purity has been asked to investigate the Amarr tradition of the sanctity of flesh.


By whom?


By other capsuleers.

About us: The Order of Purity's charter is education, indoctrination and arbitration. The Order of Purity strives to clarify and uphold Amarr traditions, strengthen capsuleer loyalty to the Empire and mediate in conflicts between loyalist capsuleers.

Gaven Lok'ri
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#12 - 2013-06-15 10:15:01 UTC
Namara wrote:
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Namara wrote:


The Order of Purity has been asked to investigate the Amarr tradition of the sanctity of flesh.


By whom?


By other capsuleers.


How vague.

And what is the point of such a public investigation?

Admiral of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore 24th Imperial Crusade

Holder. Vassal of the Emperor Family

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#13 - 2013-06-15 11:00:01 UTC
Namara wrote:

1. Since Emperor Zaragram lived many centuries and our people only received the ability to clone some 11 years ago and the origin of the tradition is preventing proliferation of clones, how old is the tradition?

2. So, the ability to have some form of immortality mimics the traditional attributes of Angels too much to be considered without sin? Is it fair to say that an immortal form is held to be exclusive to the direct servants of God (Angels) and those who adopt this ability without him granting it directly can be termed Demons? Or can capsuleers be Angels without too?


1. Oh, the capsule&clone combination is only commonplace since around 11 years ago, yes. Cloning in itself is substantially older, as evidenced by the technological miracles that the Takmahl people achieved in Araz shortly after the Empire in its cruelty exiled them.

2. Righteousness is achieved through Action. If you, as a capsuleer, act in the service of the Deceiver, then you are a demon. If instead, you are righteous, then you may be thought of as an angel, by some people at least.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Nur AlHuda
Callide Vulpis
#14 - 2013-06-15 16:51:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nur AlHuda
The sanctity of flesh as doctrine is more applied to holders and emperors then commoners. This is the simple reason since every creature has a purpose in life but shouldnt exist forever. Citizens serve the empire and therefore their life may be prolonged or shortened as empire seems fit. However holders and emperors rule the empire and are directly under God so they cant rule forever becouse of breaking the natural order.

If we are speaking about soul i think the soul transfers automaticaly. Since it was created By God it has no boundaries, no limits so i dont think some process can force it away. Soul inhabits the body as its mortal vessel. When this mortal form dies it passes on to heaven or hell. Nowhere in texts is said that it cant be sent back to do good or bad.

I assume the person accused of violating this doctrine would have to be proven guilty. That he intentionaly cloned himself for selfish purposes and goals. That he made everythink possible to hide the fact and that he coused damage with this acting.

Well the sentence i imagine since the person if killed could just woke up somewhere else would be deep cryo sleep in a tube launched to space in unknown direction sentenced to travel in deep sleep until universe collapses.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#15 - 2013-06-15 18:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Miss Namara, I can see why a Sabik heretic like Valate is ignoring the Book of Records, but not you. The Mad Emperor was struck and his name should not be used.


Nur AlHuda wrote:
The sanctity of flesh as doctrine is more applied to holders and emperors then commoners. This is the simple reason since every creature has a purpose in life but shouldnt exist forever. Citizens serve the empire and therefore their life may be prolonged or shortened as empire seems fit. However holders and emperors rule the empire and are directly under God so they cant rule forever becouse of breaking the natural order.


It is the procedure for our emperors to rule for hundreds of years. Commoners have always been of shorter lives than holders and emperors.

And while the Sanctity of Flesh is only held as religious law for emperors and the heirs, that does not mean its tenants do not apply to those of lower status as well. We are just as forsaken by God by cloning ourselves as the emperor and the heirs, whether or not Imperial law punishes us.

Quote:
If we are speaking about soul i think the soul transfers automaticaly. Since it was created By God it has no boundaries, no limits so i dont think some process can force it away. Soul inhabits the body as its mortal vessel. When this mortal form dies it passes on to heaven or hell. Nowhere in texts is said that it cant be sent back to do good or bad.


It can be sent back by God, as was the case with the miracle of Her Imperial Majesty's return. Cloning on the other hand is not a Divine process. It is a manmade process. It is not God sending His creations back, it is man trying to avoid final judgment. Even if the soul transferred, of which there is no reason to believe that it would except naive wishful thinking by capsuleers who are afraid to acknowledge the truth, to do so would be to flee God's light, to flee final judgment, and thus to be forsaken by God.
Namara
Order of Purity
#16 - 2013-06-17 21:46:57 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The flesh we were born with is flesh made by God. The flesh of clones is flesh made by man. Only God is Divine, and so only His creations are Divine. The creations of man will always pale before the creations of God.


An interesting viewpoint. Living flesh in the image of man created through the regular method of conceptions and birth is divinely blessed, while the same created through science isn't?

Samira Kernher wrote:
No more clear is this than in the soul. Man cannot create a soul, and it is wishful thinking, if not outright heresy, to believe that the Divine soul migrates from the Divine flesh created by God to the cloned flesh made by man. Clones are duplicates. A scan, an electronic photograph, is made of their brain pattern, and that scan is then mimiced onto the formless brain of the clone. Nothing from the original is transferred, only the legacy. Why should we believe that the soul, of all things, would pass from the original body to the clone body when nothing else does? Afterall, it is certainly possible to have two clones of the same person at the same time, the only thing preventing this is law. How can one believe the soul transfers from the original to the clone, when the only thing preventing hundreds of simultaneous clones of the same person is bureaucratic policy?


Is the lack of soul in an non-divinely blessed and manufactured living body noticable by any means?

If it isn't noticable, is the sanctity of flesh enforcable by us mortals?

About us: The Order of Purity's charter is education, indoctrination and arbitration. The Order of Purity strives to clarify and uphold Amarr traditions, strengthen capsuleer loyalty to the Empire and mediate in conflicts between loyalist capsuleers.

Silas Vitalia
Nobilita Nera
#17 - 2013-06-17 21:52:58 UTC
Namara wrote:

1. Since Emperor Zaragram lived many centuries and our people only received the ability to clone some 11 years ago...


Much Longer.


In its current incarnation "Sacred Flesh" Only applies to Royals.

I suspect the Theology Council will have new viewpoints on the matter as we move forward.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#18 - 2013-06-17 22:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
Samira Kernher wrote:
Afterall, it is certainly possible to have two clones of the same person at the same time, the only thing preventing this is law. How can one believe the soul transfers from the original to the clone, when the only thing preventing hundreds of simultaneous clones of the same person is bureaucratic policy?


This is obvious nonsense. Capsuleers do everything forbidden by God and men. They murder, betray, smuggle and steal as it suits them. But suddenly all capsuleers are holier than thou when the Empires ask them not to make two or more clones of themselves? Do you believe that yourself, or have you been ordered to repeat that?

I challenge you to show me, among the myriads of law-breaking capsuleers, one capsuleer that has two or more simultaneous clones. I'll ask some Sansha loyalists to perform this feat, obviously they are not held back by some Empire-bound 'bureaucratic rule', or are they?

Additionally, if they could, anyone with access to the new cloning technology for ground troops would be smart to make a hundred copies of their best warriors? Why would the Caldari State, who breed test tube children by the thousands, not mass produce their finest soldiers? Why would the Elders of the Minmatar send fleets of ships to attack Concord, but still abide by their cloning rules? That simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

The advantages of making multiple life copies are so great it is abundantly clear that people are not cloning themselves or others en-masse because *they cannot do it*. And why can't they do it? Because the clones lack one thing, a thing divinely made thing that cannot be copied: a soul. Without a soul, a clone is akin to s a rock: inert matter without volition.

People do not turn into rocks as soon as they activate their first clone is activated, they retain their moral and spiritual fibre because their soul follows them to its new host.

The very argument you make for the divine nature of the soul, as a thing that cannot be man-made, is a strong argument for the reality that no one is making multiple copies of individuals despite all the advantages and temptations.

Pfah, capsuleers not doing things because the bureaucracy tells them not to....
Namara
Order of Purity
#19 - 2013-06-17 22:16:23 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Much Longer.


Scholar Vitalia, do you have any data about the length of the practice?

Silas Vitalia wrote:

In its current incarnation "Sacred Flesh" Only applies to Royals.


If this is the case, is there much of a stigma associated with non-Royals violating this tradition?

And does this mean that anyone somewhere in the line of succession of a Royal family should abide by the rule (which is still a significant amount of people)?

About us: The Order of Purity's charter is education, indoctrination and arbitration. The Order of Purity strives to clarify and uphold Amarr traditions, strengthen capsuleer loyalty to the Empire and mediate in conflicts between loyalist capsuleers.

Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#20 - 2013-06-18 00:14:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Merdaneth wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
Afterall, it is certainly possible to have two clones of the same person at the same time, the only thing preventing this is law. How can one believe the soul transfers from the original to the clone, when the only thing preventing hundreds of simultaneous clones of the same person is bureaucratic policy?


This is obvious nonsense. Capsuleers do everything forbidden by God and men. They murder, betray, smuggle and steal as it suits them. But suddenly all capsuleers are holier than thou when the Empires ask them not to make two or more clones of themselves? Do you believe that yourself, or have you been ordered to repeat that?


Because it's built into the technology. One half of the fluid router pair is installed in the capsule, the other half is installed in the cloning machine itself. It is a one to one from the capsule to the cloning vat. The scan itself is deleted automatically during this process to prevent it being reused.

But with modification of the system it is possible to save copies of brain scans to a computer. These copies can then be used to create a new clone at any time.

I cannot point to any specific person, but that does not mean that it is outside the realm of technological possibility. I'm pretty sure there are cases of it happening before being swiftly put down by proper authorities.

Souls do not transfer. It is wishful thinking to believe that they do.

Namara wrote:
An interesting viewpoint. Living flesh in the image of man created through the regular method of conceptions and birth is divinely blessed, while the same created through science isn't?

Is the lack of soul in an non-divinely blessed and manufactured living body noticable by any means?

If it isn't noticable, is the sanctity of flesh enforcable by us mortals?


Yes. The flesh created by God, through His natural methods, is Divine. Sacred. The flesh created by man through technology, by shaping biomass and duplicating neural patterns, is not.

Is the lack of soul in a clone noticeable? If it is, it is not through my eyes. I will not speak for the clergy or for my other betters, though, perhaps they can determine it through communion with God.

As for how it is enforceable... it should be enforced through the elimination of cloning.

Silas Vitalia wrote:
In its current incarnation "Sacred Flesh" Only applies to Royals.

Namara wrote:
If this is the case, is there much of a stigma associated with non-Royals violating this tradition?


It is only a punishable crime for Royals. That does not mean that it does not apply to all. That we lessers are not punished by the law of man for cloning does not mean that it is 'okay' for us to do it.
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