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Firewalling the Caracals' missiles with destroyers?
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Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-06-13 14:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
So you can get a few of the destroyers to run cap stable with full racks of micro smartbombs, or 4 small smartbombs.

If you chain 2 micros IIs together then you can get enough damage to kill heavy missiles, a small II sb is enough to take out missiles, and I'm pretty sure you can get 3-4 chaining and still get an ab on them.

Obviously you could ship up and go for a few more on some cruisers.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-13 14:23:44 UTC
range on small bombs makes it very unlikely you will catch anything.

Art of Explosions
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2013-06-13 14:48:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
range on small bombs makes it very unlikely you will catch anything.


"Anything" is an exageration.

Diameter of small bomb is 6000m (unsure if bomb radius starts at ship center or edge, likely edge making diameter of explosion 6300ish). Speed of caracal's heavy missile is around 7000 m/s. Cycle time of max skilled smartbomb is 7.5 seconds. Missiles will be in the smartbomb's AoE for .9 seconds. If you had 4 smartbombs cycling w/o overlaps they would be covering the 'territory' of any missiles passing through for around 50% of the time.

However once you get tidi, trying to manage smartbombs gets difficult apparently.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#4 - 2013-06-13 15:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Noxisia Arkana
Completely possible to do. Applications where it is more useful than a destroyer fit for any other purpose - none.

It's so situational that it doesn't seem worth the time to me. Even if there's a single person you know that this would work against (or mission) - the chance of another player not just re-shipping (or changing targets...), or of useful application in any PVE environment is minimal.

Good theory craft. But you'd spend days flying the ship before a scenerio came up that it would make sense in. However, if you flew a PVE or PVP fit destroyer with good damage application during the same time period you would contribute significantly more to any PVP or PVE enounter.

Edit: In a massive fleet battle, there are not a lot of alliances that use missiles because of the time it takes to apply damage. Also, what massive fleets (with TIDI) would you be flying a destroyer in? Better off (if you have no SP) to be a hero tackle, and throw a tracking disrupter in the mids.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2013-06-13 15:28:13 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Completely possible to do. Applications where it is more useful than a destroyer fit for any other purpose - none.

It's so situational that it doesn't seem worth the time to me. Even if there's a single person you know that this would work against (or mission) - the chance of another player not just re-shipping (or changing targets...), or of useful application in any PVE environment is minimal.

Good theory craft. But you'd spend days flying the ship before a scenerio came up that it would make sense in. However, if you flew a PVE or PVP fit destroyer with good damage application during the same time period you would contribute significantly more to any PVP or PVE enounter.

Edit: In a massive fleet battle, there are not a lot of alliances that use missiles because of the time it takes to apply damage. Also, what massive fleets (with TIDI) would you be flying a destroyer in? Better off (if you have no SP) to be a hero tackle, and throw a tracking disrupter in the mids.



LOL!!! "Not alliances using missiles...?" Have you not seen the prices of caracals lately? Also, the CFC was using them here in the latest PNQY fight.

Alternatively, half of the APOCs could have had a small II sb in their highslots (not sure if apocs have utility highs). And a tightly organized fleet would have mitigated a ton of damage. The missile fleet meta is about alpha damage. If you have 2-3x the alpha damage to take out an apoc with your volleys then you are golden. If the fleet is smartbomb fitted able to reduce incoming damage by 50-75% most of the time, then your logis will be able to deal with them.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-06-13 15:43:15 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
range on small bombs makes it very unlikely you will catch anything.


"Anything" is an exageration.

Diameter of small bomb is 6000m (unsure if bomb radius starts at ship center or edge, likely edge making diameter of explosion 6300ish). Speed of caracal's heavy missile is around 7000 m/s. Cycle time of max skilled smartbomb is 7.5 seconds. Missiles will be in the smartbomb's AoE for .9 seconds. If you had 4 smartbombs cycling w/o overlaps they would be covering the 'territory' of any missiles passing through for around 50% of the time.

However once you get tidi, trying to manage smartbombs gets difficult apparently.


Unfortunately for you a missile does not fly a circle around your ship and then decide to hit you so you're more likely going to have around 3300m where your bomb is effective and since EVE works on 1 second server ticks:

It is very unlikely you will catch anything.

Art of Explosions
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2013-06-13 15:54:41 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
range on small bombs makes it very unlikely you will catch anything.


"Anything" is an exageration.

Diameter of small bomb is 6000m (unsure if bomb radius starts at ship center or edge, likely edge making diameter of explosion 6300ish). Speed of caracal's heavy missile is around 7000 m/s. Cycle time of max skilled smartbomb is 7.5 seconds. Missiles will be in the smartbomb's AoE for .9 seconds. If you had 4 smartbombs cycling w/o overlaps they would be covering the 'territory' of any missiles passing through for around 50% of the time.

However once you get tidi, trying to manage smartbombs gets difficult apparently.


Unfortunately for you a missile does not fly a circle around your ship and then decide to hit you so you're more likely going to have around 3300m where your bomb is effective and since EVE works on 1 second server ticks:

It is very unlikely you will catch anything.


Ah I think I see what you meant here. I wasn't assuming the missile flew in a circle, but a straight line through the diameter of a bomb's cloud. I guess this would be a flawed assumption. You are right that it is more likely that a missile would be flying through some part of the sphere that was something like half of the diameter. However, I'm thinking now, that rather than trying to make an actual shield, it might be better to just put a smartbomb on each of the apocalypses in the fleet and keep a tight formation.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-06-13 15:56:35 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:


Ah I think I see what you meant here. I wasn't assuming the missile flew in a circle, but a straight line through the diameter of a bomb's cloud. I guess this would be a flawed assumption. You are right that it is more likely that a missile would be flying through some part of the sphere that was something like half of the diameter. However, I'm thinking now, that rather than trying to make an actual shield, it might be better to just put a smartbomb on each of the apocalypses in the fleet and keep a tight formation.


This is a tried and tested method but usually involves abaddons with full racks of faction large smartbombs

Art of Explosions
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#9 - 2013-06-13 16:08:23 UTC

While this is very possible in theory, it's very impractical in practice.

In General, ships don't sit still in fights. If they do, they become easy targets for bombers (especially your firewalling destroyers). And maintaining a moving wall to thwart incoming missiles requires too much coordination to be practical "most" situations.

Combatevolved
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-06-13 18:14:33 UTC
I thought the removed the ability of smartbombs hitting missiles.

Only defender missiles can hit other missiles now.
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-06-13 18:43:56 UTC
Real men try this on the Jita undock.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-06-13 19:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Berluth Luthian
Combatevolved wrote:
I thought the removed the ability of smartbombs hitting missiles.

Only defender missiles can hit other missiles now.


I know for certain you can destroy missiles with sb. I really think they should figure out how to make sb variants the Ewar against missiles.

For example, make some smartbomb variants with a longer range, longer 'tick' time, and omni damage, then tweak drones to have a bit higher resists so they are more generally resiliant, but have bigger resist holes.
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#13 - 2013-06-13 19:15:25 UTC
Sounds fun, but too much of a hassle.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-06-13 19:30:38 UTC
Real men do this in Sleeper sites in C6 Red Giants. Big smile
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-06-14 09:27:54 UTC
I fear you are missing another aspect as well. Against the caracal fleet I think that the destoryers would just be a quick addition to the butcher's bill. The raw DPS out of the ham caracal is significant enough to quickly volly destroyers off the field.

Part of the reason firewall works is that with a bs tank buffer the point defense takes time to clear off the field giving your main fleet doctrine significantly more time to break up the opponent fleet.

The number of pilots avail to a fleet being a finite element, and the large numbers of destroyers required, it would be difficult to manage a balance to make a destroyer firewall worth while.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-06-14 10:22:54 UTC
Looking forward to the day of raven fleets ... again

No Worries
Karash Amerius
The Seven Shadows
Scotch And Tea.
#17 - 2013-06-14 18:53:44 UTC
It really boils down to server ticks...if CCP could shorten them this sort of training could take place (and there would be a metric ton of training the pilots how to effectively make a firewall).

Firewalls have been discussed for many many years...but the sort of coordination, and technical stuff under the hood (server ticks), with a smattering of TiDi makes it a futile venture.

Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#18 - 2013-06-15 09:56:40 UTC
It may be possible - though not as possible as on the larger scale because in a 1 second 'tick' a missile can jump from one side of your firewall to the other - whereas with the 6km radius Large T2/Faction offer even New Cruise will always spend at least one server tick inside the AoE on chords of up to about 3Ø/4.
Although, as you are not going to be able to cover the firewall itself due to the low HP of destroyers, and the radius of the smartbombs is unlikely to reduce the number of missiles impacting the destroyer itself...

The really important question is why you would want to?
If you have enough pilots to firewall efficiently in destroyers then why not fit them with guns and have them kill the caracals - or train them a little further and put them in more conventional firewall ships?