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Large Turret damage versus frigates.

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Sakr Moronius
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-06-10 10:23:07 UTC
I am very new, so this is more a question than a statement.

But wouldnt using a Target Painter increase the Signature Radius of the Frigates making them easier to hit? Also if OP had agro, then with the frigates beeline (MWD active etc) directly to OP which in turn greatly increase the chance to hit?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#22 - 2013-06-10 10:36:57 UTC
Sakr Moronius wrote:
I am very new, so this is more a question than a statement.

But wouldnt using a Target Painter increase the Signature Radius of the Frigates making them easier to hit? Also if OP had agro, then with the frigates beeline (MWD active etc) directly to OP which in turn greatly increase the chance to hit?


Yeah a TP would do this. A single TP gives about the same effective tracking increase as a tracking scripted tracking computer, with the additional bonus that it will also help your drones hit. However target painters have a long cycle time compared to the guns, and they have a shorter optimal (meaning sometimes the target painter will "miss"), whereas the comp just keeps working on every volley you fire. And you can change the script on the comp to range, allowing you to switch to high damage ammo.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Josilin du Guesclin
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-06-10 11:39:35 UTC
Painters also help any friends you have along, so they're excellent for small fleets/gangs, and they help missiles, which Tracking Computers, etc. do not. OTOH they are fairly cap hungry compared to Tracking Computers.

So, you pays your money, and you takes your chances.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#24 - 2013-06-13 09:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Funky Lazers wrote:
[quote=Tsukino Stareine]
Why missiles still suck? That's why:
1. Have damage reduction when a rat uses AB.
2. Need to use TP and wait for its cycle to end.
3. Have to use rigs and TPs to make missiles perform, while gun-ships don't need that and you have like 2-3 free slots.
4. No crits. Yes, guns can do critical damage. From time to time I can shoot some weak rat BS in 3 shots. My RoF is 4 sec so it takes 12 sec to kill a BS rat. Missiles can't do that.
5. Can't one-shot small frigs.
6. Damage reduction from Defenders. It works especially great when you fly a Golem. 1 defender reduces your damage by 25%.
7. Long reload time and small missile capacity. On ACs and Blasters you almost never reload during the mission.
8. Overdamage because the damage is not instant.

So yea, basically lolwot.



Missile don't miss if target is within range. Therefore, they will always provide constant DPS. Where Gun would miss complete and deal no damage
Missile Boat is immune to Jamming as long as they carry F.O.F. missiles.
Missile don't need Cap to keep shooting at enemy, or need tracking to hit target.

RoF of Cruise Missile on my Navy Scorp is around 6 sec.

Imply Defender will automatic destroy missile, and not mention you also reduce your own damage by equip defender. (I yet get L4 mission where enemy NPC have defender)

overdamage = bad missile pilot who can't manage
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-06-13 12:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Good lord, this thread is just filled with missinformation. For the good of my nerves I'll just pretend that others didn't exist and answer OP directly:



Signature resolution only affects your tracking speed. Essentially, the resolution tells you what size of the target the gun's tracking is intended for. It also means it'll have an easier time tracking larger and a harder time tracking smaller targets. In short - if the target is moving directly at you, the guns will have near 100% chance to hit, regardless of size and tracking resolution. If they're moving at a certain angular velocity, then it depends on the target's size on whether the guns can hit or not. If you're 120 km out and the guns are shooting at the frigate going straight at you, they should hit.

What I'm guessing is that the frigs target your friend and burn at him, increasing their angular velocity relative to you. This causes you to lose the tracking on them at this distance. Learn how tracking works and adjust your movement direction accordingly, then you should be fine. Do note, though that railguns have fairly bad tracking as it is and unless you hit a good angle, you might have issues, even at 100 km. A Pulse Apocalypse with Scorch ammo will handle things considerably better, for instance. Alternatively, your friend can either target paint or web the targets for you, increasing your chance to hit them properly. But beyond this, it really is all about learning how to fly a gunship. Ironically for a lot of people in this thread, missile boats are considerably easier to use in this regard, as the only thing that matters there is the target's size and speed, regardless of what direction it's flying.
Naomi Felclaw
Clan Wolf Hunters
#26 - 2013-06-13 14:43:05 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Good lord, this thread is just filled with missinformation. For the good of my nerves I'll just pretend that others didn't exist and answer OP directly:



Signature resolution only affects your tracking speed. Essentially, the resolution tells you what size of the target the gun's tracking is intended for. It also means it'll have an easier time tracking larger and a harder time tracking smaller targets. In short - if the target is moving directly at you, the guns will have near 100% chance to hit, regardless of size and tracking resolution. If they're moving at a certain angular velocity, then it depends on the target's size on whether the guns can hit or not. If you're 120 km out and the guns are shooting at the frigate going straight at you, they should hit.

What I'm guessing is that the frigs target your friend and burn at him, increasing their angular velocity relative to you. This causes you to lose the tracking on them at this distance. Learn how tracking works and adjust your movement direction accordingly, then you should be fine. Do note, though that railguns have fairly bad tracking as it is and unless you hit a good angle, you might have issues, even at 100 km. A Pulse Apocalypse with Scorch ammo will handle things considerably better, for instance. Alternatively, your friend can either target paint or web the targets for you, increasing your chance to hit them properly. But beyond this, it really is all about learning how to fly a gunship. Ironically for a lot of people in this thread, missile boats are considerably easier to use in this regard, as the only thing that matters there is the target's size and speed, regardless of what direction it's flying.


Ya I really wanted to test how the Micro Jump Drive could help us in missions. So I put together a fit for sniping targets at 100+. My friend can usually hold aggro the whole time. Which truthfully makes no sense since hes most stable when not even shooting and sitting still. We managed to slip a web onto his ship so it will be able to snap down the pesky rats.
Xeris 7
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-06-13 15:32:41 UTC
Frankly, I like it when people ask about the basics instead of "reading" it. It creates threads like this that wander all around the subject and touch on many points. I have played Eve for a very long time and I have "read" a lot but have also forgotten a lot; these threads help, out of the blue, refresh my knowledge.

I love the arguing over guns and missiles, you guys have a lot of knowledge, but it seems that it comes down to a personal preference as CCP has gotten "pretty close" to balancing the advantages and disadvantages of each weapon and your individual skills at the time. I use a Domi and T2 sentrys for L4s because I like the flexibility and how it keeps me involved and busy in the mish. Blink
Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-06-14 10:40:54 UTC
Also remember that as soon as you or your target is moving in another direction you will not have 100% chance to hit.

Tracking works like falloff, when your target moves at the velocity of your effective tracking you have 50% chance to hit, not 100%.
That also means when it hits 2x effective tracking your chance to hit is approx 8% and goes slowly down to 0 beyond that.
Shivanthar
#29 - 2013-06-14 12:13:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
PAcifisti wrote:
I see you don't do this "reading" a lot if you're complaining about hyperion losing guns and gun signature resolution?

The turret sig resolution for guns has been there for as long as I can remember. I hasn't changed at all and it only affects your tracking, not the dmg.


This is half true. Tracking side is correct, damage side is not. Turret sig radius determines the value of fully applicable percentage of damage.

I will give you an easy example:
If it were true, than a single Tornado would blast most of the frigates with one shot @ optimal range.
Your turret sig radius is 400.
Let's say your target frigate has 40 sig radius.
Let's say your salvo does 5000 damage to a battleship that has same resistance as with your target.
When you fire your weapon group to that frigate, it would say somewhere around 500 damage, instead of 5000.
I might be mistaken with the exact percentages, but hey, I just rounded pi to 3! ^.^

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
Syreniac
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2013-06-14 13:19:02 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
PAcifisti wrote:
I see you don't do this "reading" a lot if you're complaining about hyperion losing guns and gun signature resolution?

The turret sig resolution for guns has been there for as long as I can remember. I hasn't changed at all and it only affects your tracking, not the dmg.


This is half true. Tracking side is correct, damage side is not. Turret sig radius determines the value of fully applicable percentage of damage.

I will give you an easy example:
If it were true, than a single Tornado would blast most of the frigates with one shot @ optimal range.
Your turret sig radius is 400.
Let's say your target frigate has 40 sig radius.
Let's say your salvo does 5000 damage to a battleship that has same resistance as with your target.
When you fire your weapon group to that frigate, it would say somewhere around 500 damage, instead of 5000.
I might be mistaken with the exact percentages, but hey, I just rounded pi to 3! ^.^


That is completely not what happens.

Your tracking speed is simply multiplied by (Target's Sig Radius/Turrets Sig Resolution). It's is *exactly* the same as if your tracking was just that much higher, there is no extra function of sig radius in the tracking formula.

And yes, that does mean a Tornado can instablap frigates if it can hit them.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#31 - 2013-06-14 16:30:36 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
This is half true. Tracking side is correct, damage side is not. Turret sig radius determines the value of fully applicable percentage of damage.

I will give you an easy example:
If it were true, than a single Tornado would blast most of the frigates with one shot @ optimal range.
Your turret sig radius is 400.
Let's say your target frigate has 40 sig radius.
Let's say your salvo does 5000 damage to a battleship that has same resistance as with your target.
When you fire your weapon group to that frigate, it would say somewhere around 500 damage, instead of 5000.
I might be mistaken with the exact percentages, but hey, I just rounded pi to 3! ^.^

This is completely wrong.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2013-06-14 18:04:49 UTC
Shivanthar wrote:
PAcifisti wrote:
I see you don't do this "reading" a lot if you're complaining about hyperion losing guns and gun signature resolution?

The turret sig resolution for guns has been there for as long as I can remember. I hasn't changed at all and it only affects your tracking, not the dmg.


This is half true. Tracking side is correct, damage side is not. Turret sig radius determines the value of fully applicable percentage of damage.

I will give you an easy example:
If it were true, than a single Tornado would blast most of the frigates with one shot @ optimal range.
Your turret sig radius is 400.
Let's say your target frigate has 40 sig radius.
Let's say your salvo does 5000 damage to a battleship that has same resistance as with your target.
When you fire your weapon group to that frigate, it would say somewhere around 500 damage, instead of 5000.
I might be mistaken with the exact percentages, but hey, I just rounded pi to 3! ^.^


please not take anything in this post seriously anyone reading the thread.

Art of Explosions
Shivanthar
#33 - 2013-06-14 21:01:27 UTC
Yep yep, you're right. Long time ago, when I was reading this line in wiki:
"A smaller signature radius makes a ship harder to hit with turrets due to tracking effects, take less damage from missiles, and take longer to lock. "
I think I mixed the turrets and missiles part. Very good that my misinformation is fixed before it is too late :P

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.
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