Player Features and Ideas Discussion

WHs have steady income with blues that drop from each sleeper drone.

My humble opinion on the matter is that versatility is in and of itself not a solution to any problem. People don't fly ships that aren't the best at what they are designed to do, not withstanding cost. Look at what happened with the Retribution changes to frigates and cruisers. Many of them were poo before the changes, so what made them better? They were given role bonuses and appropriate configurations that allowed them to exploit those bonuses for specific tasks. While they still have the capability to be fit for other tasks people arent really doing so. It makes me think that CCP is a little off with its charts on versatility in relation to power.

In a sandbox game where people make their own fun they set out with a particular task in mind. They then find the best ship to do the job they want and train/skill/farm for it. Look at all the ships that are considered successfull. They aren't considered great beause they can do two or three things in one fitting, they are great because all aspects of the bonuses and fittings compliment each other to be devestatingly effective at a particular task.

I think DPS is pretty okay within the class of ships itself, perhaps the Tengu needs a further DPS or range nerf while the Legion and maybe Loki need a bit of love. Where I can see a problem is perhaps with their tanks. Particularly if one were to buff the DPS of the Legion it would need somewhat less tank. How about reducing tank while increasing speed? The result would be that they could still tank similar levels of damage, but would require careful management to do so. This would also make them less attractive to blobs and better for smallish gangs. Not 100% convinced by that but just throwing it out there.

In relation to T2 I can see that many races feel they have a problem particularly when comparing a HAC style T3 to an actual T2 HAC. Most of my experience comes from the Zealot and Legion as I am a somehwhat newer player and I cant really see too much of a problem. The Zealot is still fearsome but in quite a different way to the Legion, not to mention the difference in cost and potential skill point loss. In most cases it's a problem with T2 just being rubbish.

Unless we a find a way for versatility to actually be usefull on the battlefield I don't want to see T3's made more 'versatile' because then its not just a nerf to stats but a nerf to overal usability. Essentially what I'm asking for (and have yet to see) is for someone to suggest a way to construe the term 'versatility' in a way that people would actually want.

In short my opinion is that T3's are expensive and have the novel cost of skillpoint loss in addition to high hull costs and therefore need some power to justify undocking with such risks attached.

First of all, how would this work? Rigs attached to that subsystem? You can pull them off that subsystem without destruction? What happens when you remove that sub? Can you attach normal rigs to the ship again? What happens when you re-attach the variable rig system? Do the 'hard' rigs disappear? Destroyed? back to cargo hold?

Second, who would use this? I can have two or three ships each set up to perform a task optimally well. Or I can take your new sub and have one ship that I can fit and rig for a number of tasks whenever I'm in station except in each instance its going to perform worse than having one of each ship. Result is that most people will never use it and you've just added another useless sub to teh already long list. Remove the drawbacks and people might consider it, but your still giving up the other engineering bonus.

EVE is a game about min-maxing. Unless versatility affects something after you press undock it's pretty useless.

They dont have good dps with cloaks.

They dont have natural stabs (with any subsystem).

They dont have good defenses with command links.

Battleships can have a beast of a tank, cyno and equal remote rep (they dont have the bonus, but they have up 8 highs)

I want a heavy nerf of interdiction nullifier. Its OP too much.
Make both offensive subsystem so you cant fit cloak + nullifier for example.

no this has nothing to do with cloaking, there simply shouldnt be ship/module for almost absolutely safe travel across 0.0/WH.

As you stated, it's not completely safe, it is possible to be caught. To be honest with a little practice Cov ops frigates can pass through almost as easily. Sure there is higher chance of getting busted, but I don't feel its that much more difficult.

As for safe travel... What about jump bridges and clone hopping? There are plenty of easy ways to move around in hostile space without a T3. Correct me if I'm wrong but I am unaware of corps/alliance saying: "Alright folks, we have to get from A to B, but we want to avoid the bubbles so everyone hop into your T3's and off we go". So it doesn't eem to be used as a force projection tool or 'super sneaky get around you' tactics. The reason for this is because of the current layout, where to get both systems you have to sacrifice DPS bonuses and propulsion bonuses (not to mention fewer low slots, affecting tank/dps further).

I don't know if it was you but in the other thread in GD someone suggested moving Cov Ops in propulsion to avoid Cloack+Nullified. I laughed a little because that would result in 1k DPS proteus uncloaking at 3km. You suggestion is similar in that it would create other balance issues between subs and slot layouts.

Personally I don't use it a lot and think its something complained about far too much considering its limited value and capability. By all means tell me how it is negatively impacting play on a large scale to warrant significant changes, I would be interested to hear.

I think CCP put a lot of effort into balancing the subs in such a way as to avoid massively OP combinations appearing. It's also why many of the subs are poo, because to make them more powerfull would not make the OP in and of themself, but in combination with other subs would be too powerfull. Therefore any changes to the subs would have to take into account the macro balance picture of all subsystems. I don't think this is worth all the effort for something that. in my opinion at least, has such a limited impact on gameplay.

First of all, please don't get me wrong I'm not trying to say your ideas are 'stupid' or don't belong in this thread, as you rightly pointed out this thread is about potential T3 changes. Your suggestion comes up now and again in similar threads so I thought this might be an opportunity to discuss it?

Regarding bubbles and Cov Ops:
I would argue that considering a T3 costs 10-20 times more than a CovOps and will be slower if it makes a mistake is it so terrible that it should be even more difficult to catch? I agree that maybe the way I qualified my comparisons on how difficult it is to catch a CovOps with a T3 were a bit off.

Comparisons with other ways of moving around:
It seems you don't like the ease with wich players move around in general, not just limited to T3? Sorry but this is a entirely different kettle of fish which I feel would derail this a little. What I would say though is that your argument that it shouldn't exist because other ways already exist is a bit odd. I feel It's quite an expensive way moving around in comparison with bridging (A well managed titan should never be caught in the same way a well managed T3 should not be caught).

On accesability
I think this is your best point and one that I could agree with. It's too easy from a skillpoint/logistics standpoint to move around freely. What about special skill requirements for particular subs? Heavy navigation/science requirements on interdiction nullification? Something perhaps to consider in general with regard to T3 balancing.

My biggest issue is... Who cares? It's easy to move your character around but so what. What are you going to do once you get where you want to be? You can't carry much, can't DPS/tank reliably for the cost of the ship. I just don't see what one or two characters moving around through bubbles in expensive ships is really doing to hurt anyone. Intel? You can throw a lot of CovOps at a camp before a T3 is cost viable (not to mention skill differences). This is what I would most like to see addressed by you (or anyone) as I am happy to listen. Before this is addressed I would be reulctant to shake up the whole class and subsystem balance.

IMO certain aspects of the ship should be locked in by the hull and not the subsystems.
Drone Bay (but not bandwidth)
Slot layout (but not hard points) with the interdiction nullifier still being a -1 low slot.
Cargo hold

Gallente would be
H-6
M-4
L-6
Drone bay 225
Cargohold 300

Caldari would be
H-6
M-7
L-3
Drone bay 50
Cargohold 425

Amarr
H-6
M-3
L-7
Drone bay 200
Cargohold 325

Minmatar
H-6
M-6
L-4
Drone bay 80
Cargohold 275

why not have them both fitted as it makes no sense once ur epointed u aint going no where at all the only thing that needs doing is loosing the right to fit stabbs with a nullified sub a insta lock ship cna ruin ure day in one easily, and if you cant catch one then ure not doing it right or u just not that interested in catching it that much.

there sallways two side of a coin take wh and gates yeh it can balst past the bubles and jump but then it sitll has to align and warp off on the other side thats hwo you catch them