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Confused Golem Pilot
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xXClideXx
No Taxes Btche
#1 - 2013-06-11 19:55:45 UTC
Hello,

So I have a maxed out torp golem fit with implants and maxed skills. I have all skill for cruise missiles and torps maxed out. The implants are all for torps. With the new buff to cruise missiles, I'm wondering if it is worth changing to cruise missiles? I don't care about money or anything like that in terms of fitting, I just want to do missions fast as possible.

Is it worth the change? I understand the range is much better with cruise, but I don't really have issues with that in my golem. I know where to head in each mission so I am in range and all that. I have looked all through these forums and this is discussed somewhat but generally is comparing different cruise boats.

Let me know what you think, is it worth changing my golem to cruise?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#2 - 2013-06-11 20:10:04 UTC
Would longer range weapons allow you to finish faster? Why not just experiment with cruise missiles and try them out?

Oh god.
Novah Soul
#3 - 2013-06-11 21:21:27 UTC
xXClideXx wrote:
Hello,

So I have a maxed out torp golem fit with implants and maxed skills. I have all skill for cruise missiles and torps maxed out. The implants are all for torps. With the new buff to cruise missiles, I'm wondering if it is worth changing to cruise missiles? I don't care about money or anything like that in terms of fitting, I just want to do missions fast as possible.

Is it worth the change? I understand the range is much better with cruise, but I don't really have issues with that in my golem. I know where to head in each mission so I am in range and all that. I have looked all through these forums and this is discussed somewhat but generally is comparing different cruise boats.

Let me know what you think, is it worth changing my golem to cruise?

Set up a fitting tool (like EveHQ or EFT) and plug in your implants, skills and mods. Tweak them around to see which one you like best. Big smile

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
consuasor
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-06-11 21:26:56 UTC
Test it. The question is too broad to be concisely answered without extensive playtesting, which not many possess at this stage of Odyssey.

On a quick glance, it looks very viable.

For DED complexes and nullsec anoms, I'd say definitely yes, as the range allows for microjumpdrive kiting and/or warping to anoms at a relatively pvp safe distance.
xXClideXx
No Taxes Btche
#5 - 2013-06-11 21:39:18 UTC
Testing it is hard.

EFT does not help because cruise and torps have big explosion radius and the numbers on EFT don't translate. Testing in game (properly) would require me to take out some implants and t2 rigs, would be 500 mill. While I don't mind spending a lot of money, that is a hefty experiment.

But I guess if there's not a definitive answer then it might not be worth it
xXClideXx
No Taxes Btche
#6 - 2013-06-11 21:40:02 UTC
I forgot to mention this is for level four missions

Maybe that changes it?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-06-11 21:44:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukino Stareine
I would honestly say cruise is outright better since the expansion. Golem's torps reach a maximum of 45.9KM with T2 rigs and a +5% velocity implant. This means you have to fly around in almost every mission to get to your targets and is enough waste of time to seriously be considering cruises.

Plus the fact you can't use rigors due to using the range rigs you're stuck with 320 explosion radius even with perfect skills and +5% implants.

On the other hand cruise missiles with 2 t2 rigors and implants gets explosion radius down to almost heavy missile range at 150m.

So let's take a practical example:

Standard BC rat

Below assumptions based on perfect skills, +5% implants and ONLY launchers fit on the golem.

Missile damage formula using nova type torps/cruises show that:

1 torpedo will do 781 damage to it or 82.92 DPS
1 cruise missile will do 870 damage to it or 80.42 DPS

Let's put it in more favourable light for torps:

Standard Rat BS

Missile damage formula says:

torp - 90.14 DPS
cruise - 65.54 DPS

significant advantage on battleship sized ships.

Now the questions you must ask yourself: ~38% more DPS on battleship sized ships ONLY or 66.6km more (or more with a sebo) range and same damage on battlecruisers and better damage on everything smaller?

Art of Explosions
stoicfaux
#8 - 2013-06-11 23:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Cruise are better, IMHO. Keep the missile speed rigs and you won't have to count volleys out to 80+km. The only drawback is that you'll require one extra volley over the CNR against elite angel cruisers. Also carry 4 TPs and use 2 TP per target.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-06-12 00:17:27 UTC
xXClideXx wrote:
Testing it is hard.

EFT does not help because cruise and torps have big explosion radius and the numbers on EFT don't translate. Testing in game (properly) would require me to take out some implants and t2 rigs, would be 500 mill. While I don't mind spending a lot of money, that is a hefty experiment.

But I guess if there's not a definitive answer then it might not be worth it


There is this amazing place in new Eden. It's called the test server, where everything is like 100isk. Testing is easy and cheap.
xXClideXx
No Taxes Btche
#10 - 2013-06-12 00:36:06 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Cruise are better, IMHO. Keep the missile speed rigs and you won't have to count volleys out to 80+km. The only drawback is that you'll require one extra volley over the CNR against elite angel cruisers. Also carry 4 TPs and use 2 TP per target.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551


From looking at the spreadsheet in that thread it seems to me they are generally equal. Javs suffer on the biggest BS and frigs, CN torps have equal amount of volleys but less range, and rage seems to perform equally in terms of volleys on bigger ships.

With that information it seems the only difference is range and ammo price, which would give the advantage to cruise missiles.

One question I have is the time to kill, how is it faster with torps than cruise? I would be surprised to hear that torp's rate of fire is faster. Still if that's the case, then the question would be if those extra seconds translate to higher isk per hour despite the more expensive ammo.
Rengerel en Distel
#11 - 2013-06-12 00:36:13 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
xXClideXx wrote:
Testing it is hard.

EFT does not help because cruise and torps have big explosion radius and the numbers on EFT don't translate. Testing in game (properly) would require me to take out some implants and t2 rigs, would be 500 mill. While I don't mind spending a lot of money, that is a hefty experiment.

But I guess if there's not a definitive answer then it might not be worth it


There is this amazing place in new Eden. It's called the test server, where everything is like 100isk. Testing is easy and cheap.


And the mirror is only from about 2 days ago.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
xXClideXx
No Taxes Btche
#12 - 2013-06-12 01:03:30 UTC
So I looked at the market and cruise fury missiles are more expensive than torp rage and javs, but less expensive than CN torps. This means that generally using torps will be less expensive and faster than using cruise missiles (all according to the spreadsheet posted earlier. So in terms of doing missions as fast as possible and making the most isk, it seems torps still win. This does not take into account issues with range and reloading. I ignore range because after a while as a Golem pilot you can learn where to navigate and who to aggro to keep ships within range. Reloading will bring the speed at which you complete the missions a bit slower, but rage and CN torps time to kill is 3 seconds shorter and could make up for that.
Boomhaur
#13 - 2013-06-12 01:17:52 UTC
Go cruise there are times when you HAVE to travel to hit targets, that time wasted is opportunity cost. Ignore the prices of ammo for lv4's in my opinion it's negligible compared to the time saved by using something better.

Welcome to Eve. Everyone here is an Evil Sick Sadistic Bastard who is out to get you. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either trying to scam you or use you.
stoicfaux
#14 - 2013-06-12 02:55:23 UTC
xXClideXx wrote:

One question I have is the time to kill, how is it faster with torps than cruise? I would be surprised to hear that torp's rate of fire is faster. Still if that's the case, then the question would be if those extra seconds translate to higher isk per hour despite the more expensive ammo.

Ammo switching (between javelin and t1/faction,) volley counting, and waiting on NPCs to get into Javelin range are where a Torp Golem loses DPS.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-12 03:32:22 UTC
just to add to my first post. I derped with forgetting javelins but the DPS drops horribly for just a 23km increase in range.

Cruise is just better now, no contest.

Art of Explosions
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-06-12 03:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
yeah stoicfaux knows best Roll 4 TP's... way to suck the fun out of a Golem. (and he'll have something to say, because you can't quantify fun in a spreadsheet)

I use torps and a MWD plus a Pith booster and Caldari Navy amp... with a crystal set. because it's just visceral and fun. it's basically just a torp chucker with resists and ONE TP.

I like to think of my Golem as Mike Tyson. It is big, fast, hairy, and in-your-face. I can sometimes be heard giving a battle yell.

Mike Tyson voice: "I could feel his muscle tissues collapse under my force. It's ludicrous these mortals even attempt to enter my realm."

you have no idea how much fun Worlds Collide can be, until you try such a setup. I have never seen NPC battleships disperse so damn fast. center of the expanding sphere of NPC battleships is the Golem.

In Rain level4 missions, Golem bring torps to you!

uppercut after uppercut BOOM! BOOM!

though I also have a pimp fit nightmare. and a dedicated salvage client. and a dedicated orca for refit and resupply. and dedicated logi... all with their own screens. so my golem may be a special case.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#17 - 2013-06-12 08:23:18 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Cruise are better, IMHO. Keep the missile speed rigs and you won't have to count volleys out to 80+km. The only drawback is that you'll require one extra volley over the CNR against elite angel cruisers. Also carry 4 TPs and use 2 TP per target.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=230551


And reloading obviously - a Torp Launcher holds fewer rounds...

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
Ziester
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-06-12 11:29:40 UTC
xXClideXx wrote:
...

I don't have a point of comparison but I'm using this :
Quote:
[Golem, Golem - Cruise Golem]

Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster, Cap Booster 400

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Nova Fury Cruise Missile

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Bouncer II x3


Cleaning Sanctums in 21/22 minutes, 28-29m/tick
900+ Launcher DPS, sentries for frigates, rest with Furies.
The tank looks weak but I don't even need it that much, in fact the 2nd ASB is here only to allow the first one to reload if need be.

Pop, rock, Metal radio station
xXClideXx
No Taxes Btche
#19 - 2013-06-12 18:55:03 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:

you have no idea how much fun Worlds Collide can be, until you try such a setup. I have never seen NPC battleships disperse so damn fast. center of the expanding sphere of NPC battleships is the Golem.

In Rain level4 missions, Golem bring torps to you!

uppercut after uppercut BOOM! BOOM!

though I also have a pimp fit nightmare. and a dedicated salvage client. and a dedicated orca for refit and resupply. and dedicated logi... all with their own screens. so my golem may be a special case.


I think that's why even though cruise is overall better, I love the third room in world's collide and watching all the BS run away as they get 2 shot!! The feeling is just so boss
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#20 - 2013-06-13 02:07:36 UTC
try flying it as is just change to cruise instead of torps. 15km/s cruise are fun :D

I haven't flown the golem in quite a while so I don't really have a good way to compare it.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
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