Player Features and Ideas Discussion

All right, look. Tech 3s are going to change. Not soon, but we know it's going to happen. Speaking as a w-space person, I will miss the 5% booster T3 and the massive tank/mega gank brawler Proteus, among others, but it seems quite clear that Ytterbium wants to take T3s in a different direction.

From what he's said so far, T3s are supposed to be more versatile ships, doing things that other, more specialized ships can't do. Right now they aren't that, in fact most (but not all) of the time they are just better versions of other ships. My personal favorite, the heavy combat Legion, is basically just a Zealot with BS-sized tank.

Before the great nerf guillotine swings down on our beloved Tech 3s, I thought it would be worth getting ahead of Ytterbium a little bit and brainstorming what NEW roles a new kind of T3 could fill.

To start with, I wanted to look at the one type of T3 that actually genuinely fills a niche no other ship can: The heavy cloaky/scanny. Beloved of W-space, there is no other kind of ship that can fit a solid BC-sized tank, a covops cloak, an expanded probe launcher, and still put out decent DPS (there is such a thing as a 600dps cloaky Proteus).

First, I hope the rebalance will take it to heart that this is something Tech 3s should continue to be able to do, because at least in w-space it's an incredibly useful thing that no other ship can do. You can get partway there with a well-fit recon, but nothing can actually be a genuinely combat-capable (non-support) ship and still a cloaky/scanny.

Second, what other unique roles would we like to see filled, that no other ship in the game currently fills? Here's a couple of rough ideas I've been playing with:

- A mini-HIC. Bubble half the size, but faster and capable of using prop mods while bubbling. Can be scripted for a more mobile infinipoint because I feel no compassion for supercap pilots whatsoever.

- A cruiser that can fit an MJD. Granted this is kind of rendered irrelevant by the interdiction nullifier, but I don't know if that's on the chopping block or not. Also relies on mid-sized long-range weapons being non-terrible.

- An industrial subsystem. No, seriously. Cloaky miner? Dic-nulled hauler? There's potential here.

- The lesser Etana. Already sort of possible with the Adaptive Augmenter and Cloaky subsystem, but with no range bonus to reps the application is exceedingly limited.

- A smartbomb-bonused subsystem. The miniature, mobile firewall, or specialized drone-killer.

- Viable EWAR subsystems for all races. Right now you've got the ECMgu, which is pretty nasty, the neut Legion, and the web Loki. No TD bonused Legion, no damp bonused Proteus, and I'm just going to skip over target painters because seriously the web loki is better for that anyways.

- A minidread. Moreso even than the attack BC, a cruiser-sized siege module that actually REDUCES tank but does tremendous violence to stationary objects.

My goal for this thread is mostly to give CCP some ideas to chew over, because a straight nerf to Tech 3s would be very disappointing. They are unique, interesting ships and I would be content if they could do unique, interesting things.

Well first of all T3 is meant to be generalization not specialization thus any subs that give it a unique role is the opposite of generalization so is not viable option.

The main thing for me is T3's should have navy cruiser like tank (default resists) whether that is achieved with rigs or just subs..
- i prefer just subs only i think rigs encourage more specialization and decrease flexibility like..
- say a Loki is shield fit but wants to swap to armour it atm has to destroy its rigs and buy new ones etc...

And to be able to do 2 roles well and maybe a third role at a slight reducement/stretch. at a level inbetween T1 and T2
-Logi and e-war or links and e-war etc.
make shield tanking more viable on proteus and legion so 3/4 T3's can switch between armour and shield tanking.

A realization that most T3 fits are complete garbage and only a few are even worth of being called "T2" let alone T3.

I just want something that doesn't obsolete HACs, yet is still actually useful in it's own right.

<_<

In my opinion, the point is more that T3's, in their most optimized subsystem/module pairing, should not be as good at a specific role as the ships that are designed for it.

Take HAC's. IF a HAC's force output (tank/gank focus) is at a certain level, than a T3 should not be better than them at that role. This is a big IF, however, because it requires CCP to more specifically define which ships are for tanking (traditionally HIC's), which are for ganking (traditionally, HAC's), and which ships are for speed.

Without a bit more definition, T3's capabilities cannot truly be limited. However, when a T3 strategic cruiser can reach massive EHP's that supersede all HIC's AND HAC's ... that means it is doing the job of tanking far better than any of it's t2 counterparts.

Now, you fit a T3 with the tank almost reaching a HIC, with the gank almost meeting a HAC, and the ability to cloak or use command modules or repair others ... then you are achieving what I feel was the point of T3. Versatility, not simply in changing out subsystems, but in battlefield roles.

This. Balance this **** out, it's like the Legion got the leftovers of what the other T3s ended up with, especially the Tengu.

Someone else mentioned that only a few of their platform have EWAR. This is also a problem.

Basically, I suggest that we take out a lot of the under used (that being, the useless) subsystems, and turn them into more specialized options.

But, the thing with T3s is, that they are an interesting dichotomy with regards to their performance.

If they aren't tip top in performance, no one will use them in comparison to T2 cruisers, because if T3s aren't awesome, then they are just T2s that you lose skillpoints for dying in. No one will fly them if that happens.

Conversely, you have to make sure that the T3s do not outright invalidate the T2s at any role the T2 is supposed to excel at.

To this end, I would suggest that T3s not be permitted to fire Interdiction effects of any kind. They should be able to duck them, with their superior technology, but they should not be able to use them. The entire point of Interdiction vessels is their ability to use these mods, let them keep that ability.

I want T3 to lack rigs (but compensate with subsystems) so the changing of subsystems on-the-fly is more reasonable

Again, it's not just the versatility of swapping out subsystems. It's the versatility on the battlefield.

Having a machine with good dps, a cloak, and decent speed. Having a cruiser that has natural stabs and good armor plus command links. Having a beast of a tank that can drop a cyno and remote rep.

The idea isn't JUST that the subsystems allow one ship to do many roles by swapping them out. We all know that if you gotta swap subsystems, you might as well swap ships. But you can also do many roles at the same time on the battlefield ... just theoretically, not as good as the dedicated t2 counterpart.

Keep in mind, as well, the cost. With the latest T2 build cost changes, T2 ships cost considerably more. If they rebalance the T2 ships to reflect a more effective and specialized role on the battlefield, then the cost difference between T2 and T3 won't be as severe, and the role difference may be more appropriately realized.

All in all, it still comes down to a 'wait and see' mentality with what CCP's goal is.

I want to see Tengu's Acceleration Ejection Bay nerfed as it is out of balance compared to others: it gives 100% boost to DPS AND(!) damage projection bonus when maximum what other subs give is 60% + some damage projection. It needs its kinetic damage bonus removed and it'll be in line with other subs but still a bit OP due to damage type selection.

Even if true it's not an obstacle to the balancing T3. The ability to do many things with a good level of profiency is extremely valuable at times. It allows you to handle a wider range of targets and situations on a single ship. Slightly lower EFT numbers won't make them obsolete in actual combat situations, where an additional ability/bonus set can turn the situation in your favor again. Therefore they can easily remain better then specialized ships in many areas, but that advantage has to be gained through abilitites and stats, that fall outside the individual T2 specializations.