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Situation in Haatomo

Author
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#81 - 2013-06-11 17:45:33 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Of course they are and Heth-haan owns a significant stake in Kaalakiota interests and this might be presumption on my part, but the whole affair in New Caldari a few months back in addition to the, "Investigations" into, "Executives involved" in the, "Illegal massacre" of Kaalakiota employees would have probably changed management structures.

As for who is charge right now of Kaalakiota and more importantly, the Home Guard? I honestly have no idea, but I do hope that Ms. Haatakan Oiritsuu will be re-appointed to lead Kaalakiota back on the course it requires in the interim.

Present circumstances certainly makes discerning where my own contractual obligations must lie without Oiritsuu-haani.

As far as I am aware, you are incorrect; I do not believe Tibus Heth owns any stake in Kaalakiota itself, only in Caldari Constructions, though of course my or his allies may own some though intermediaries. On the other hand, if they do, it isn't enough to deter the corporation from now participating in his own destruction.

As far as Oiritsuu-haani...well, considering her past performance I am not sure that reappointing her as CEO would give much of a boost of confidence to investors. She does not seem to have a particularly good grasp the political realities of running the corporation, seeing as how easily she was apparently toppled.

As far as what "terrorist" connotates in this circumstance, the fact that it means that Tibus Heth and the Provists under his command are not acting with any legitimate authority according to the CEP and the CBT is enough -- they are criminals and nothing else, and they should be dealt with as such.
Per Bastet
B.O.O.M
Obsidian Mining Coalition
#82 - 2013-06-11 18:02:07 UTC
I say Place some Breaching Charges on the Airlocks and Blow them, after the Power gets cut to the Emergency Systems. They already closed and Sealed all the doors to the rest of the station, then Heth will have no air left in his balloon of hot air.

"Whether the paranoid conspiracy theory community has had a separate trial process and decided other crazy batshit insane garbage was true I can't attest to as I don't subscribe to that mailing list and instead deal in the realm of fact."  - CCP Sreegs, 2013

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#83 - 2013-06-11 18:07:58 UTC
When you retire, Kim, you should become a historical revisionist. You seem very adept at changing facts and redefining words to fit your worldview.

Heth has taken actions against the state by attacking and trying to coerce citizens of the Caldari State with the stated goal of "taking back Caldari Prime" a planet mostly under control of the State. If he were planning to attack Ishukone districts that is an attack on the State, if he is planning on attacking Gallante districts, then he is in violation of a treaty signed by the CEP, that he, as the CEO of Kalaakiota, is legally bound to uphold.

However you want to define "terrorist", Heth is still a criminal. Being a leader does not automatically make ones actions, right, just or legal, and Heth's claim to leadership of the State is dubious at best since the final authority in the State is legally the CEP. We don't live in some barbaric society where people can abuse their power to do anything they want and get anything they want, and we don't live in some magical universe where the people at the top are somehow inhumanly unfallible.
Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron
Atlantis Kingdom
Reckless Contingency.
#84 - 2013-06-11 18:17:24 UTC
Was the media actually correct about a Caldari civil war? Could this be the start of something greater? Only time will tell.

I am glade I am far away from Caldari regions.

Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron Gallente Federation Engineering, research, business student at the prestigious Eve University. Owner of Swiftly Processing. A private trading, manufacturing and refining business.

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#85 - 2013-06-11 18:29:53 UTC
Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron wrote:
Was the media actually correct about a Caldari civil war? Could this be the start of something greater? Only time will tell.

This is not a war. It is law enforcement.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Black Advent
#86 - 2013-06-11 18:43:07 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

As far as I am aware, you are incorrect; I do not believe Tibus Heth owns any stake in Kaalakiota itself, only in Caldari Constructions, though of course my or his allies may own some though intermediaries. On the other hand, if they do, it isn't enough to deter the corporation from now participating in his own destruction.

As far as Oiritsuu-haani...well, considering her past performance I am not sure that reappointing her as CEO would give much of a boost of confidence to investors. She does not seem to have a particularly good grasp the political realities of running the corporation, seeing as how easily she was apparently toppled.

As far as what "terrorist" connotates in this circumstance, the fact that it means that Tibus Heth and the Provists under his command are not acting with any legitimate authority according to the CEP and the CBT is enough -- they are criminals and nothing else, and they should be dealt with as such.


Ownership in Kaalakiota interests does in fact extend to its subsidiary elements, and the actual method in which Heth-haan's means of leveraging his CC stock into a CEO position of KK has certainly been a point of interest for myself even if it has been kept rather opaque the past five years by about every securities exchange in the State.

And if you are to judge Oiritsuu-haani's qualifications to lead based solely on her inability to retain her position in the face of the rise of Caldari Providence Directorate, well, you would have to make the same sort of judgements in being unable to grasp political realities of the entire CEP for their inability to prevent ceding their strategic control to a sole Executor.

One might even commend Oiritsuu-haani for having the convictions in her duty to Kaalakiota in ordering the shots to be fired on Piak five years ago even if it was unpopular at the time. Regrets only that the Home Guard marksmen who were ordered to pull the triggers did not have better aim.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#87 - 2013-06-11 18:49:21 UTC
Any claims of a civil war by the media are just over-sensationalized headlines by news organizations desperate for viewership.
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
SE7EN-SINS
#88 - 2013-06-11 18:52:43 UTC
I entirely agree. Ironically enough, most Caldari are far too civil to have a civil war.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#89 - 2013-06-11 18:55:04 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Ownership in Kaalakiota interests does in fact extend to its subsidiary elements, and the actual method in which Heth-haan's means of leveraging his CC stock into a CEO position of KK has certainly been a point of interest for myself even if it has been kept rather opaque the past five years by about every securities exchange in the State.

I am saying that I know he owns a majority of Caldari Constructions stock, and therefore, barring extraordinary legal means, I do not believe his position there is assailable. On the other hand, as far as I am aware, he has no such standing when it comes to Kaalakiota. Owning a significant number of shares of a former Kaalakiota subsidiary does not confer any standing when it comes to Kaalakiota itself.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
And if you are to judge Oiritsuu-haani's qualifications to lead based solely on her inability to retain her position in the face of the rise of Caldari Providence Directorate, well, you would have to make the same sort of judgements in being unable to grasp political realities of the entire CEP for their inability to prevent ceding their strategic control to a sole Executor.

If you are unaware with my statements previous, allow me to inform you -- my opinion of the CEP, and their foolish and cowardly actions in allowing the CPD to hijack and destroy the institutions and integrity of the State over the last four years, is entirely consistent with my opinion of Oiritsuu-haani. While I have great respect for Reppola-haan, and understand that he was placed in a poor position due to the inaction of the Ishukone board for a year, even he has failed miserably when it has come to preserving the rule of law in the State.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
One might even commend Oiritsuu-haani for having the convictions in her duty to Kaalakiota in ordering the shots to be fired on Piak five years ago even if it was unpopular at the time. Regrets only that the Home Guard marksmen who were ordered to pull the triggers did not have better aim.

The number of mistakes made by Kaalakiota and Caldari Constructions on that day (and in allowing the situation to reach that point) are numerous. Kaalakiota handled that whole situation extremely poorly, in not controlling the media portrayal of that incident and also in attempting to resolve the matter in the most heavyhanded and counterproductive way possible. There is nothing laudable about how that was handled.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Black Advent
#90 - 2013-06-11 19:31:38 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:

I am saying that I know he owns a majority of Caldari Constructions stock, and therefore, barring extraordinary legal means, I do not believe his position there is assailable. On the other hand, as far as I am aware, he has no such standing when it comes to Kaalakiota. Owning a significant number of shares of a former Kaalakiota subsidiary does not confer any standing when it comes to Kaalakiota itself.


Did I not just say as much when I specifically stated:

"...actual method in which Heth-haan's means of leveraging his CC stock into a CEO position of KK has certainly been a point of interest for myself even if it has been kept rather opaque the past five years by about every securities exchange in the State."

Or are you seeking to be contrary for the sake of it?


Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
If you are unaware with my statements previous, allow me to inform you -- my opinion of the CEP, and their foolish and cowardly actions in allowing the CPD to hijack and destroy the institutions and integrity of the State over the last four years, is entirely consistent with my opinion of Oiritsuu-haani. While I have great respect for Reppola-haan, and understand that he was placed in a poor position due to the inaction of the Ishukone board for a year, even he has failed miserably when it has come to preserving the rule of law in the State.


I might take another position as to the decisions of Oiritsuu-haani and the CEP: Given the very real risk of internal revolt and the instability presented by the popular revolution the CPD represented, far better to quiet the tongue until such time a situation presents itself that re-asserting control of rightful CEP authority can be met with chance of success. At times when must know when to wear the proper masks to meet the demands of the times. What you may perceive as inaction was simply the requirements to act wisely and with patience, and perhaps the reason why the men and women who sit on the CEP are there and you do not is because they have wisdom to know when to divorce their personal feelings to achieve what they must for those whom they are obligated to and the State.

They at least have done their duty under difficult political circumstances to achieve what they can for the past five years and they, along with many citizens of the State have had to bite their tongues because they could not afford the luxuries of being a capsuleer who can simply engage in consequence-free diatribe under CONCORD regulations in null-sec space because they didn't personally agree with the CPD.

Must be a trend among Liberals.


Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
The number of mistakes made by Kaalakiota and Caldari Constructions on that day (and in allowing the situation to reach that point) are numerous. Kaalakiota handled that whole situation extremely poorly, in not controlling the media portrayal of that incident and also in attempting to resolve the matter in the most heavyhanded and counterproductive way possible. There is nothing laudable about how that was handled.


I often find little laudable about Federal political pundits who enjoy nothing more than to express their own beliefs in their superior judgement while having the luxuries of twenty-twenty hindsight and free from the actual burdens of political or corporate management and leadership in the State.

No doubt we'd all do it better sitting in the comforts of our armchairs after the fact.

You might disagree with the orders Oiritsuu-haani gave to the Home Guard on Piak five years ago as, "Heavy-handed" but I disagree, because it showed the willingness to act decisively against a legitimate threat to lawful corporate authority and the fact is that if the Home Guard and executed their orders as duty demanded of them then, we wouldn't even have to be dealing with the situation in Haatamo today.

I much prefer a leader who is willing to act and utilize any means at their disposal to preserve the rule of law without reservation and without mercy in the interests of the Greater Good of the Company than an indecisive and hesitant one who seeks to play to the love and adulation of the crowds for that at least shows strength and conviction to be admired.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Makoto Priano
Kirkinen-Arataka Transhuman Zenith Consulting Ltd.
#91 - 2013-06-11 19:41:06 UTC
Gesakaarin-haani, jibes against fellow citizens of the State because of a mere disagreement on methods are unbecoming of you. We all wish to serve the State as well as possible. We merely differ on how we believe this may be best achieved.

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Crazy Captain Nemo
Nova Corps Marines
#92 - 2013-06-11 20:30:36 UTC
Kim-Haani,

I always have and still hold much respect for one such as yourself. There is much honor to be had in following a just and good leader. From one soldier to another, please take a step back and analyze the situation. The CEP has declared that Heth-Haan and his actions regarding the taking of this station to be unjust. You have a choice to make, follow Heth-Haan or follow the CEP. At this point in time there is no other option. I have much respect for you and as I stated earlier I will follow the words of Reppola-Haan who in turn follows the CEP. I do not wish our first meeting in person to be as enemies. Regardless of what anyone here thinks, claims, or screams we can all only choose the CEP or Heth-Haan. Make your choice, quit posturing your genitals and egos at each other like feral beasts, and ready your ships because no matter what side you choose. This will end in blood and fire.

I salute all of you, and pray that this matter of the STATE, can be solved without bloodshed. I must go and prepare to mourn for those who will soon no longer be living.
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Black Advent
#93 - 2013-06-11 20:48:57 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
Gesakaarin-haani, jibes against fellow citizens of the State because of a mere disagreement on methods are unbecoming of you. We all wish to serve the State as well as possible. We merely differ on how we believe this may be best achieved.


There is never disagreement where duty and obligation are concerned.

The Chief Executive Panel named Tibus Heth Executor and duty and obligation demanded I prosecute war in the name of the State for it is not my place to question, but to serve to fullest capacity I am able.

If the Chief Executive Panel demands otherwise then so shall I seek to abide them as duty and obligation requires.

The only difficulty I see right now is not due to differences in opinion but due to a lack of clarity as to standing CEP directives as regards the situation in Haatamo. My own personal reservations and political opinions in addition to the personal reservations and political opinions of others, here or elsewhere are nothing more than ancillary considerations. Because, frankly, neither I nor anyone who has entered into this particular discussion currently sit on the CEP and until that changes they are worth not a jot.

And in the end, just because one disagrees with an legitimate order on personal grounds it does not suddenly make it an illegitimate order, which is perhaps an apt analogy for the situation in the State the past five years. Using it, one comes to see the difference between those who prescribe fully to the demands of duty and obligation and those who have mere affectations of it.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#94 - 2013-06-11 20:54:54 UTC
Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
Did I not just say as much when I specifically stated:

"...actual method in which Heth-haan's means of leveraging his CC stock into a CEO position of KK has certainly been a point of interest for myself even if it has been kept rather opaque the past five years by about every securities exchange in the State."

Or are you seeking to be contrary for the sake of it?

Perhaps I misunderstood, but if you do not disagree with me, then I do not understand why you think Heth's ownership of Caldari Constructions shares buys him anything in this particular case...

Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
I might take another position as to the decisions of Oiritsuu-haani and the CEP: Given the very real risk of internal revolt and the instability presented by the popular revolution the CPD represented, far better to quiet the tongue until such time a situation presents itself that re-asserting control of rightful CEP authority can be met with chance of success. At times when must know when to wear the proper masks to meet the demands of the times. What you may perceive as inaction was simply the requirements to act wisely and with patience, and perhaps the reason why the men and women who sit on the CEP are there and you do not is because they have wisdom to know when to divorce their personal feelings to achieve what they must for those whom they are obligated to and the State.

They at least have done their duty under difficult political circumstances to achieve what they can for the past five years and they, along with many citizens of the State have had to bite their tongues because they could not afford the luxuries of being a capsuleer who can simply engage in consequence-free diatribe under CONCORD regulations in null-sec space because they didn't personally agree with the CPD.

Our leaders are supposed to lead, not be held captive to the mob. This is not the Federation or the Republic. This was a man who was a glorified forklift operator two months before he "took" power -- in that for no apparent reason they handed over the reins of the State to an unqualified moron. How many billions of our fellow Caldari have suffered because of that mistake? How many trillions of ISK have been burn in perpetuating this absurd situation?


Veikitamo Gesakaarin wrote:
You might disagree with the orders Oiritsuu-haani gave to the Home Guard on Piak five years ago as, "Heavy-handed" but I disagree, because it showed the willingness to act decisively against a legitimate threat to lawful corporate authority and the fact is that if the Home Guard and executed their orders as duty demanded of them then, we wouldn't even have to be dealing with the situation in Haatamo today.

I much prefer a leader who is willing to act and utilize any means at their disposal to preserve the rule of law without reservation and without mercy in the interests of the Greater Good of the Company than an indecisive and hesitant one who seeks to play to the love and adulation of the crowds for that at least shows strength and conviction to be admired.

I prefer a leader that realizes that force is not the most effective method in maintaining control, but a last resort. The inability of Kaalakiota to control the media in the wake of that incident and their panic in dumping Caldari Constructions stock is what got us into this whole mess. Wiser minds would have dealt with the whole situation quietly -- and permanently.
James Syagrius
Chatelain Auxiliary Response
Intaki-Business Logistics Union
#95 - 2013-06-11 21:29:08 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
I think that Heth is himself more motivated by Gallentean hatred than by proletariat idealism, Miss Priano.

Indeed so, it would seem his hatred for the Federation exceeds his love the State.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-06-11 21:31:18 UTC
Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
Eric 'Swiftmind' Siraron wrote:
Was the media actually correct about a Caldari civil war? Could this be the start of something greater? Only time will tell.

This is not a war. It is law enforcement.


I like to think of it as pest control.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#97 - 2013-06-11 21:32:01 UTC
Right about now I expect that Heth and his provist dogs are hating the Caldari state more than the Federation. Such as it is with this type. He probably blames the State for his failure, and the people have let him down, not understanding.

The State has more to fear from his wrath. And he has demonstrated no qualms about waging acts of war against it already.



I suspect he will weigh the balances between attacking Gallente Prime, or Caldari Prime, or even New Caldari such that in the latter case, if New Caldari becomes unliveable, the people will have to return to Caldari prime, and such strife from displacement (along with ancestral claims) would further flame the fires that Heth tries so hard to build. And he does so with reckless hatred such that he would not care who these flames burn.


If we can get Concord to sign off on making the station a legitimate target we capsuleers can solve this problem once and for all.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Saana Nupuunen
Aseyakone
#98 - 2013-06-11 21:53:49 UTC
We can argue and bicker all we want. The important thing is that the issue with stolen Navy property and any hostages gets dealt with the Caldari way: efficiently and remembering the good of the State as a whole. Many are quick to call for blood, but especially as the Templis Dragonaurs are now openly involved, I at least would advise caution to avoid creating any martyrs. Corporate laws and regulations no doubt have ways to demand reparations for any damages caused. A pauper's grave is a much better treatment to such criminals than burning in the fire of combat.

Right now, it appears that the State security is content to let the Hethists stew in the blocked off sections of the station, just as my sources indicated yesterday. This may go on for a few days. Preliminary psychological profiling seems to suggest the holed in to have rather hot tempers and short patience. It is much better to deny them action and let them fight amongst themselves.

The most capsuleers can do now is to present support to the authorities, and prepare to assist with support duties, including triage and salvage and recovery, should the guri in the station try to further vandalize the property of the member corporations of our State.
Jelani Akinyemi Affonso
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-06-12 00:47:11 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
I support Heth's stance to retake Caldari Prime.


lol

Please explain to me how he is going to that now?

LMAO
Mebrithiel Ju'wien
Anshar Incorporated
#100 - 2013-06-12 01:30:10 UTC
I guess Heth is about to find out what it means to be Caldari...