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Your thoughts on the Sentry-Wang vs. the Sentry-Potato (PvE)
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Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
#1 - 2013-06-10 21:38:57 UTC
So last night I tried out the new drone-oriented 'geddon for the first time. In my opinion, anything the Sentry Dominix can do, the Sentry 'geddon does better (insofar as lvl 4 missions). I can fit 5 cruise launchers WITH a pair of drone control range enhancers, a TP, a Sensor Booster II (to push my lock range out to cruise missle range, an omnidirectional doohicky, and a cap recharger II. I have a large armor rep II, an EANM II, three drone dmg mods, and two BCSs. It puts out more DPS at farther ranges than the dominix (using two drone control range on the domi leaves 4 guns/missles), has a larger tank, longer lasting cap...the only short coming is it's slow as molasses (which can be a problem for the likes of World's Collide and a few other "long distance" missions, but as far as a stationary DPS monster, the Sentry Armageddon is the far superior boat. I'm not sure how I feel about this. I am getting a bit sick of the diluting of the things that make the races unique. If you want drones, train up Gallente. If you want lasers, train up Amarr. I don't think I want all races to do all things, and I really don't want a race's "secondary" focus to surpass the race that supposedly masters it. Thoughts?

TL;DR Sentry Dominix now plays second fiddle to the Sentry Armageddon, which is slightly upsetting since Gallente are supposed to be the DRONE race.

-Lynkon Lawg
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-10 21:55:12 UTC
To be fair, it seems that CCP has simply decided that drones are not a primary weapon system for any race now. Every race has one primary and one secondary weapon system in The New EvE. And the primary weapon for Gallente is now hybrids, not drones. Maybe this is because they think every race's tactics should be centered on using some sort of direct shooty thing. Or maybe it's because they don't have any idea what to do with drones to make them actually work.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
shaie Terona
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-06-10 22:03:39 UTC
What's the optimal range on your Garde II's?

Bet they are not even close to the 73.7km optimal of my dual fed navy omni linked Garde's
Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
#4 - 2013-06-10 22:04:10 UTC
Freighdee Katt wrote:
To be fair, it seems that CCP has simply decided that drones are not a primary weapon system for any race now. Every race has one primary and one secondary weapon system in The New EvE. And the primary weapon for Gallente is now hybrids, not drones. Maybe this is because they think every race's tactics should be centered on using some sort of direct shooty thing. Or maybe it's because they don't have any idea what to do with drones to make them actually work.


I agree with you on the primary/secondary weapon thing...it's always been that way. The table below is from a forum post from 2009. Let's say that it is accurate (although I don't believe the Gallente primary weapon system is hybrid), I have an issue with an Amarr tertiary weapon boat being the Death Star of drone boats.



Amarr:
primary weapon - lasers
secondary weapon - missiles
tertiary weapon - drones

Gallente:
primary weapon - hybrids
secondary weapon - drones
tertiary weapon - missiles

Minmatar
primary weapon - projectiles
secondary weapon - missiles
tertiary weapon - drones

Caldari
primary weapon - missiles
secondary weapon - hybrids
tertiary weapon - drones
Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
#5 - 2013-06-10 22:06:01 UTC
shaie Terona wrote:
What's the optimal range on your Garde II's?

Bet they are not even close to the 73.7km optimal of my dual fed navy omni linked Garde's


Wouldn't your Garde IIs be 73.7km in the 'geddon as well with dual blah blahs?
shaie Terona
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-06-10 22:10:55 UTC
Lynkon Lawg wrote:
shaie Terona wrote:
What's the optimal range on your Garde II's?

Bet they are not even close to the 73.7km optimal of my dual fed navy omni linked Garde's


Wouldn't your Garde IIs be 73.7km in the 'geddon as well with dual blah blahs?


No
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#7 - 2013-06-10 22:13:24 UTC
Lynkon Lawg wrote:
shaie Terona wrote:
What's the optimal range on your Garde II's?

Bet they are not even close to the 73.7km optimal of my dual fed navy omni linked Garde's


Wouldn't your Garde IIs be 73.7km in the 'geddon as well with dual blah blahs?

No, it wouldn't. The Dominix has a significant range and tracking advantage.
Armageddon wrote:
Amarr Battleship skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Drone damage and Hit Points
10% bonus to Energy Neutralizer and Energy Vampire range


Dominix wrote:
Gallente Battleship skill bonus per level:
10% bonus to Drone Damage and Drone hitpoints
10% bonus to Drone optimal range and Drone tracking speed


This argument should be about unbonused cruise launchers vs. extra range, tracking and unbonused turrets.
Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
#8 - 2013-06-10 22:13:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lynkon Lawg
shaie Terona wrote:
Lynkon Lawg wrote:
shaie Terona wrote:
What's the optimal range on your Garde II's?

Bet they are not even close to the 73.7km optimal of my dual fed navy omni linked Garde's


Wouldn't your Garde IIs be 73.7km in the 'geddon as well with dual blah blahs?


No


I stand corrected
shaie Terona
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-06-10 22:27:39 UTC
Kasutra wrote:

This argument should be about unbonused cruise launchers vs. extra range, tracking and unbonused turrets.


It's basically this.

A Domi can project it's drone damage considerably further and track better to boot.

70+km with the hardest hitting, shortest range sentry is not shabby at all.

The only time i need to use small or medium drones is when the mission dumps you in the middle of a group, the rest of the time frigates get 1 volleyed at range.
Dato Koppla
Neuronix
#10 - 2013-06-10 23:41:54 UTC
Don't forget that Drone Scope Chips are not stacking penalized and if you use 3 T2 Omnidirectional Tracking Links + a Large Drone Scope Chip you can hit 90km optimal on Garde IIs :)
NAIRA HOKULANI
Bordello of Bleu's
#11 - 2013-06-11 02:33:59 UTC
I can get 150km range on T2 Wardens on my non faction fitted Domi, yes no guns but do not need them...I use Sentry Rigs also.

The amount of sentry damage is very extreme.
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-06-11 09:38:37 UTC
NAIRA HOKULANI wrote:
I can get 150km range on T2 Wardens on my non faction fitted Domi, yes no guns but do not need them...I use Sentry Rigs also.

The amount of sentry damage is very extreme.

The good about the new domi - it's a nice drone sniper with impressive range, especially coupled with a micro jump drive. It has great survivability even, I'd imagine, for really new pilots. It doesn't need much concentration to fly adequately and it doesn't cost a huge amount. The fittings are pretty cheap as well and a little bit of blinging out can help quite a bit. It doesn't use ammunition.

The bad - domis are slow, sentry damage is underwhelming, mission completion times are lackluster, sentries are vulnerable to rat target switching and accidentally leaving them in missions. Unless you dual prop (ugh) if you mess up your MJD then you'll be slow boating to the gate/mission completion can.

By its nature as a moderate dps sniper it tends to leave long wreck trails so the missions are often slower to loot/salvage.

Possibly there are missions it may do tolerably, Buzzkill was less irritating than usual, but still not something you'd choose to do. Angel Extravaganza bonus room was possible though not completely trivial.

Essentially there may be edge cases where a new domi is an acceptable mission boat but the vast majority of the time you'd be better off with something else. It's a shame because I've been itching to try a sentry rattlesnake for a while and could never quite bring myself to splurge the isk. Now I've seen what a sentry dominix, with added sentry range and tracking, flies like I wont be bothering.

Perhaps if there were Augmented Sentries (that weren't terrible like the existing augmented drones) and faction drone damage amplifiers then it might put out enough dps to be worthwhile but as it is I don't think that it does.

I did eft a ridiculous 1800dps blaster/garde navy domi that might be usable in, um, Damsel maybe and there are probably small gang PvP uses for a neut sentry domi with a MJD but those are pretty niche. It's also possible that there's a decent shield rail/sentry domi but I lost interest playing around trying to find one that wasn't bad.
shaie Terona
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-06-11 10:37:41 UTC
Celia Therone wrote:


The good about the new domi - it's a nice drone sniper with impressive range, especially coupled with a micro jump drive. It has great survivability even, I'd imagine, for really new pilots. It doesn't need much concentration to fly adequately and it doesn't cost a huge amount. The fittings are pretty cheap as well and a little bit of blinging out can help quite a bit. It doesn't use ammunition.

The bad - domis are slow, sentry damage is underwhelming, mission completion times are lackluster, sentries are vulnerable to rat target switching and accidentally leaving them in missions. Unless you dual prop (ugh) if you mess up your MJD then you'll be slow boating to the gate/mission completion can.



  1. Do you even have T2 sentry's?
  2. See point 1
  3. You must be new if leaving drones is a habit
  4. Mine moves at a more than reasonable pace with an AB fitted



Quote:
By its nature as a moderate dps sniper it tends to leave long wreck trails so the missions are often slower to loot/salvage.



  1. See point 1 above
  2. I have tried EVERY BS in game with a comparable fit for mission running, not a lot out there comes remotely close to it's damage projection.
  3. If your salavager's Noctis cannot reach wrecks from an unbonused Domi it's skill's are lackluster



Quote:
Essentially there may be edge cases where a new domi is an acceptable mission boat but the vast majority of the time you'd be better off with something else. It's a shame because I've been itching to try a sentry rattlesnake for a while and could never quite bring myself to splurge the isk. Now I've seen what a sentry dominix, with added sentry range and tracking, flies like I wont be bothering.



  1. Such as? were talking actual **** hot damage projection here not stupid EFT numbers.
  2. Again domi wins in damage projection, thanks to it's range and tracking bonus



Quote:
Perhaps if there were Augmented Sentries (that weren't terrible like the existing augmented drones) and faction drone damage amplifiers then it might put out enough dps to be worthwhile but as it is I don't think that it does.



  1. see point 1 at the top.


Quote:
I did eft a ridiculous 1800dps blaster/garde navy domi that might be usable in, um, Damsel maybe and there are probably small gang PvP uses for a neut sentry domi with a MJD but those are pretty niche. It's also possible that there's a decent shield rail/sentry domi but I lost interest playing around trying to find one that wasn't bad.


Because blasters are good for mission running. Roll
Griffin Rhys
Kalmincon
#14 - 2013-06-11 11:09:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Griffin Rhys
Celia Therone wrote:

sentries are vulnerable to rat target switching and accidentally leaving them in missions.


A little attention to your sentries can alleviate both of those problems though. In the case of the sentries getting targeted I simply pull the targeted one at about half shields wait a couple of secs and pop it out again....haven't lost a sentry yet. as for leaving them behind, well.....Roll

Celia Therone wrote:

It's a shame because I've been itching to try a sentry rattlesnake for a while and could never quite bring myself to splurge the isk. Now I've seen what a sentry dominix, with added sentry range and tracking, flies like I wont be bothering.


I tried out a sentry Snake recently (post patch) and I would have to say that while, it isn't bad and does the job pretty well especially with the cruise missile buffs, I would definitely recommend the sentry Domi option. While I haven't flown a sentry Domi as yet (will this week sometime) it is plainly obvious that the Domi far out weighs the Snake in both ability (drone range) and cost effectiveness by a huge margin.

I only built a sentry Snake for 4 reasons - 1) relief of boredom from Marauders, 2) I had never used a MJD before, 3) I had never used sentries in missions before and 4) I have a rather perverse love affair with the Snake Twisted

Disclaimer: for those that don't see the obvious I am only referring to high sec level 4 missions Blink
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-11 12:35:22 UTC
shaie Terona wrote:
Celia Therone wrote:


The good about the new domi - it's a nice drone sniper with impressive range, especially coupled with a micro jump drive. It has great survivability even, I'd imagine, for really new pilots. It doesn't need much concentration to fly adequately and it doesn't cost a huge amount. The fittings are pretty cheap as well and a little bit of blinging out can help quite a bit. It doesn't use ammunition.

The bad - domis are slow, sentry damage is underwhelming, mission completion times are lackluster, sentries are vulnerable to rat target switching and accidentally leaving them in missions. Unless you dual prop (ugh) if you mess up your MJD then you'll be slow boating to the gate/mission completion can.



  1. Do you even have T2 sentry's?
  2. See point 1
  3. You must be new if leaving drones is a habit
  4. Mine moves at a more than reasonable pace with an AB fitted


Quote:
Essentially there may be edge cases where a new domi is an acceptable mission boat but the vast majority of the time you'd be better off with something else. It's a shame because I've been itching to try a sentry rattlesnake for a while and could never quite bring myself to splurge the isk. Now I've seen what a sentry dominix, with added sentry range and tracking, flies like I wont be bothering.



  1. Such as? were talking actual **** hot damage projection here not stupid EFT numbers.
  2. Again domi wins in damage projection, thanks to it's range and tracking bonus



Quote:
Perhaps if there were Augmented Sentries (that weren't terrible like the existing augmented drones) and faction drone damage amplifiers then it might put out enough dps to be worthwhile but as it is I don't think that it does.


Quote:
I did eft a ridiculous 1800dps blaster/garde navy domi that might be usable in, um, Damsel maybe and there are probably small gang PvP uses for a neut sentry domi with a MJD but those are pretty niche. It's also possible that there's a decent shield rail/sentry domi but I lost interest playing around trying to find one that wasn't bad.


Because blasters are good for mission running. Roll

Yes I have T2 sentries. I know you're desperate to be right but... you're really grasping at straws here. Leaving drones isn't a habit but... sometimes things happen. You disconnect when your drones are too far to auto-dock and they're dead by the time you get back into the mission. It's a weakness of drone boats. I've also been getting intermittent graphics glitches with the drone window which have prevented me from seeing drone health bars in space.

Just run mission times against a standard HML tengu (far from the fastest mission boat out there) and the new dominix gets crushed in pretty much every mission.

What are your good bounty ticks at with the sentry domi in level 4 missions? I'm not sure I've seen much above 10mil/tick with the domi, the HML tengu has gotten over 20mil/tick (e.g. World's collide, Dread Pirate) although 17mill is probably more usual in those missions.

How long does it take you to do a full clear of Angel Extravaganza, including bonus room with the sentry Dominix?

I'm not sure that this discussion is going to be terribly useful...

You know that drone progression goes like this?
Ogre I (tech 1/Meta 0)
Ogre II (Meta 5)
'Integrated' Ogre (Meta 6)
Federation Navy Ogre (Meta 6)
'Augmented' Ogre (Meta 8)

However because the 'Augmented' drones throw all of their meta points into extra speed/defensive stats and do the same damage only split over two different damage types (so you can't pick the damage type your rats are weakest to) they are almost never worth using over their lower tech t2 versions despite selling for around 100 times the price of the t2?
shaie Terona
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-06-11 13:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: shaie Terona
Celia Therone wrote:
snip


I was going to upload a video until i realised who of sane mind wants to watch a pve vid, Then you went and compared it to a Tengu aswell.

@ all lvl 5 a Tengu with a T2 fit will see around 640 dps at 70 ish km IF it can apply it's damage (Scourge Fury)
470 dps @ 94km with T1 ammo, again IF it can apply it's damage.
Then you have the fact it is pigeon holed into using kinetic missiles.
Then is the fact that you have to juggle TP's IF you fit them.

An all lvl 5 T2 fit domi 3 damage mods and 2 omni links will insta pop frigates out to 70km with Garde II's
Garde alone will net you 750 dps and only struggle to hit frigs at extremely short range.

Warden II's will net you 560 dps out to max lock range (they get 171km optimal)
Curator is 610dps out to 120km
Bouncer is 650 dps out to 135km

^^those are drone only dps figures

Then we can factor in 5x w/e turret you feel like fitting to the ship i use 1 drone link.

So please come again at how the tengu is superior.

Tengu is faster and more agile, they are the only positives it has v's the domi i can think of.

EDIT

Most cruisers are gone in 2 volleys (again drones only) Did your 1st missile volley even arrive yet?
Gefen Orion
Icebox Industries
#17 - 2013-06-11 13:59:30 UTC
shaie Terona wrote:
Celia Therone wrote:
snip


I was going to upload a video until i realised who of sane mind wants to watch a pve vid, Then you went and compared it to a Tengu aswell.

@ all lvl 5 a Tengu with a T2 fit will see around 640 dps at 70 ish km IF it can apply it's damage (Scourge Fury)
470 dps @ 94km with T1 ammo, again IF it can apply it's damage.
Then you have the fact it is pigeon holed into using kinetic missiles.
Then is the fact that you have to juggle TP's IF you fit them.

An all lvl 5 T2 fit domi 3 damage mods and 2 omni links will insta pop frigates out to 70km with Garde II's
Garde alone will net you 750 dps and only struggle to hit frigs at extremely short range.

Warden II's will net you 560 dps out to max lock range (they get 171km optimal)
Curator is 610dps out to 120km
Bouncer is 650 dps out to 135km

^^those are drone only dps figures

Then we can factor in 5x w/e turret you feel like fitting to the ship i use 1 drone link.

So please come again at how the tengu is superior.

Tengu is faster and more agile, they are the only positives it has v's the domi i can think of.

EDIT

Most cruisers are gone in 2 volleys (again drones only) Did your 1st missile volley even arrive yet?


To add to your statements....

A domi sniping at 120km is immune to jamming...so faster killing rate. A tengu with HAMs or HML will be jammed most of the time.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-06-11 13:59:45 UTC
Celia Therone wrote:

Yes I have T2 sentries. I know you're desperate to be right but... you're really grasping at straws here. Leaving drones isn't a habit but... sometimes things happen. You disconnect when your drones are too far to auto-dock and they're dead by the time you get back into the mission. It's a weakness of drone boats. I've also been getting intermittent graphics glitches with the drone window which have prevented me from seeing drone health bars in space.

So you're going to make comparisons using your awful internet and computer as a factor Roll?

Just run mission times against a standard HML tengu (far from the fastest mission boat out there) and the new dominix gets crushed in pretty much every mission.

If you're clearing missions (note clearing not blitzing) faster with a tengu I have serious concerns over your piloting skills.

What are your good bounty ticks at with the sentry domi in level 4 missions? I'm not sure I've seen much above 10mil/tick with the domi, the HML tengu has gotten over 20mil/tick (e.g. World's collide, Dread Pirate) although 17mill is probably more usual in those missions.

If you're measuring your mission profitability using bounty ticks, I hate to be the first to inform you but: you're doing it wrong.

How long does it take you to do a full clear of Angel Extravaganza, including bonus room with the sentry Dominix?

Less than a HML tengu that's for sure.

Art of Explosions
Lynkon Lawg
Second Six Corporation
#19 - 2013-06-11 16:07:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lynkon Lawg
I see a lot of talk about Angel's 'Ganza, and I can say that, at least in it's old incarnation, the Sentry-Domi was one of the fastest ships to complete it in. The ultra-short ranges that the Angels fly made Garde IIs (no need for extending control range) and a full rack of Neutron IIs exceptionally effective at clearing them out. Removing the Hybrid bonuses simply means to me that ACs or Torps would become an option as the secondary weapon of choice against them now, but this circles back to my original point. The slot layout of the new Sentry-'geddon allows for a higher damage output and higher tank (even with the sixth turret/launcher on the Domi) than a short range Dominix.

I see the range bonus useful, however, for missions like the first stage of "World's Collide", and the second stage of Guristas "The Assault"

Incidentally, I checked last night. In the old Dominix, my Garde II were optimal at 40km (two Omnis). Now I am at 59km. A nice bump, but not earth shaking.

-Lynkon Lawg
Vexidious
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2013-06-11 17:28:35 UTC
Celia Therone wrote:

The good about the new domi - it's a nice drone sniper with impressive range, especially coupled with a micro jump drive. It has great survivability even, I'd imagine, for really new pilots. It doesn't need much concentration to fly adequately and it doesn't cost a huge amount. The fittings are pretty cheap as well and a little bit of blinging out can help quite a bit. It doesn't use ammunition.

The bad - domis are slow, sentry damage is underwhelming, mission completion times are lackluster, sentries are vulnerable to rat target switching and accidentally leaving them in missions. Unless you dual prop (ugh) if you mess up your MJD then you'll be slow boating to the gate/mission completion can.

By its nature as a moderate dps sniper it tends to leave long wreck trails so the missions are often slower to loot/salvage.


I fly a Sniper Sentry Domi, and this is all completely accurate. It is far from the fastest mission runner, but it is nearly impossible to screw up with it, even if you have low skills. Warp in, pick a direction, hit the MJD, stop, deploy sentries, shoot everything from 150+km away. Target order barely matters, and in 90% of the missions you probably won't even have to turn on your tank.

With good drone skills, Bouncer IIs will have an optimal of 120+km, and deliver 650dps with excellent tracking. Frigates die to a single volley, and cruisers take 3 or so. In the unlikely event that something makes it to ~60km, you can deploy Garde IIs to bump your dps up to about 750.

It's nice and it's easy, but there are certainly better ships you could be running L4s in, although the only one can compare in terms of skill requirements and ship cost is probably the Raven. Its a nice starting ship for L4s, but you probably will want to look at something else once you have the skills and ISK to upgrade.
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