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help understanding guns

Author
Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-06-11 04:18:02 UTC
So here is what I don't understand......I WAS using small focused pulse lasers. They were Meta four, I forget the exact name. But I switched to Dual pulse laser meta 4's just to test something. Now the dual lasers say they have lower range AND lower DPS. But I swear dude...they tore through the enemy NPC's faster than the small focused lasers. Why is that? Was it just my imagination? As far as I can tell, they have just a little bit more rate of fire.

Am I missing something or am I just crazy?
Praxis Ginimic
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-06-11 04:39:32 UTC
The fitting window can be misleading as it doesn't take your skills into account. You need to indigo and pull up the fitting window in space or just mouse over your mods. Or you could download a fitting program like eft or pyfa to get a clear image of what a fit is capable of before buying the kit. Be careful of relying on paper stats though. You will never get as much performance in space as you will on eft.
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#3 - 2013-06-11 04:42:10 UTC
iirc the Dual ones have a better tracking stat so more damage is applied to the target.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#4 - 2013-06-11 04:46:59 UTC
they are smaller guns so they have better tracking. 0.27375 rad/sec on the duals, and 0.24625 rad/sec on the smalls. seems like a small difference and that the small beams should kill faster, but sometimes that small difference can make a big change.

I suppose it is also possible it just felt like they were killing faster due to the higher rof. or possibly if you grouped your other guns you were getting a lot of overkill wasting shots and thus adding some time overall.

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Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-06-11 05:23:07 UTC
so which are better do yall think? Duals or singles? Because now I am trying out the longer range ones. the BEAMS instead of PULSE. I tried the single ones first, and they killing in like one hit 10 KM away lol.

Do you think it is just the way I fly maybe that the better tracking does more damnage for me? Or is it that way for everyone? I just can't decide which are better.......the duals SEEM better, but I can't ignore the numbers. I wish I could.

Are the differences at least negligible or something?
Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-06-11 05:40:49 UTC
Let me make sure I understand this correctly..................the PULSE energy weapons are short range, high damage....correct? And the BEAM energy weapons are long range, Low damage.....right?

Because for some reason it seems backwards. It seems like the PULSE weapons are LOW RANGE AND LOW DAMAGE and the BEAM weapons are HIGH RANGE HIGH DAMAGE. But that cannot be right?
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-06-11 07:04:11 UTC
Well, for pretty much all turrets you have first the choice of size (small, medium, large).
Bigger means more range, more damage, much higher fitting requirements and much worse tracking.
Usually you simply chose the ones that fit your hull.

Then, you have the choice between long range (e.g. Beam weapons) and short range (Pulse weapons).
Long range means more range, slightly less damage, longer cycle times, higher fitting requirements and worse tracking.
While they deal slightly less damage, it's mostly a tradeoff between range and tracking, not damage.

After that, you get different sub-sizes. (e.g. Gatling Pulse, Dual Light Pulse, Small Focused Pulse)
"Bigger" means slightly better range & damage, but worse tracking and higher fitting requirements.

Then, you have meta levels. A meta 4 module is better on all accounts than a meta 0 module, but should costs more.
A tech 2 module ("meta 5") is usually equivalent to a meta 4, but with higher fitting requirements. However, it gets extra bonuses from the tech 2 skill and allows tech 2 ammunition. (And it's often cheaper than meta 4.)

Finally, you can fine-tune your guns with ammunition that changes some properties.

If you combine all this, you can get some results that might seem odd (e.g. a Small Focused BEAM laser deals more damage than a Dual Light Pulse laser), but they are usually balanced. Don't make the mistake to believe that tracking isn't important, just because it doesn't show on the hover text
Ylariana
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2013-06-11 08:11:28 UTC
The key here is Rate of Fire.

Pulses do short range, lower individual shot (Alpha Strike) damage BUT fire more rapidly. This usually means Higher DPS potentially.
Beams do Long Range, high individual shot (Alpha Strike) damage but fire much more slowly. this usually equates to Higher Alpha but lower DPS.

Bear in mind you need to consider Travel Time to get short range weapons into firing range....
Ace Menda
Gemini Lounge
#9 - 2013-06-11 08:27:27 UTC
Pulse: low range with high DPS (Not damage but damage/sec)
Beam: long range with high alpha (so more actual damage. But lower DPS)

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Max Godsnottlingson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2013-06-11 08:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Godsnottlingson
Enockx Kaine wrote:
so which are better do yall think? Duals or singles? Because now I am trying out the longer range ones. the BEAMS instead of PULSE. I tried the single ones first, and they killing in like one hit 10 KM away lol.

Do you think it is just the way I fly maybe that the better tracking does more damnage for me? Or is it that way for everyone? I just can't decide which are better.......the duals SEEM better, but I can't ignore the numbers. I wish I could.

Are the differences at least negligible or something?


It's not a case of which is better, but which is best for the job. If you know that you are going to be facing small fast targets, then go duels for the faster tracking and higher hit rate, but if you ar egoing against larger, slower targets, then singles are the way to go because you need the extra punch raher then deftness; also they will have a longer reach which is something else you may need against arger, slower targets
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#11 - 2013-06-11 11:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerath Naaris
Also, try to kite the NPCs.

Those (and rookie PvPers as well) are usually quite dumb and try to approach you in a straight line (little to no angular velocity, close to 0 rad/sec), then, once they reach the set distance, start to orbit you (raising their angular velocity). Kiting prevents the NPCs from reaching this distance, forever trailing behind you like immature girls Justin Bieber.
You can do so by pressing the "Keep at distance"-button, right-clicking that one even allows you to individualize the chosen distance.

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Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-06-11 13:11:08 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
Well, for pretty much all turrets you have first the choice of size (small, medium, large).
Bigger means more range, more damage, much higher fitting requirements and much worse tracking.
Usually you simply chose the ones that fit your hull.

Then, you have the choice between long range (e.g. Beam weapons) and short range (Pulse weapons).
Long range means more range, slightly less damage, longer cycle times, higher fitting requirements and worse tracking.
While they deal slightly less damage, it's mostly a tradeoff between range and tracking, not damage.

After that, you get different sub-sizes. (e.g. Gatling Pulse, Dual Light Pulse, Small Focused Pulse)
"Bigger" means slightly better range & damage, but worse tracking and higher fitting requirements.

Then, you have meta levels. A meta 4 module is better on all accounts than a meta 0 module, but should costs more.
A tech 2 module ("meta 5") is usually equivalent to a meta 4, but with higher fitting requirements. However, it gets extra bonuses from the tech 2 skill and allows tech 2 ammunition. (And it's often cheaper than meta 4.)

Finally, you can fine-tune your guns with ammunition that changes some properties.

If you combine all this, you can get some results that might seem odd (e.g. a Small Focused BEAM laser deals more damage than a Dual Light Pulse laser), but they are usually balanced. Don't make the mistake to believe that tracking isn't important, just because it doesn't show on the hover text



Does it show the tracking stats somewhere in the info of the weapon? I am not at home right now, so I can't check for myself. If so, how does it work.....the higher the tracking the better or what?
Degnar Oskold
Moira.
#13 - 2013-06-11 13:59:57 UTC
If you right click on the weapon icon after installing it in your ship you can view its information including the tracking after being affected by your skills.

High tracking is what you want. High tracking allows you to hit better at any range.

In general when you have low skills, beam lasers are superior because pulse lasers are too short-ranged.
Merouk Baas
#14 - 2013-06-11 15:57:00 UTC
Are you comparing weapons of same caliber?

The categories are Small, Medium, Large, but within each category you have different calibers.

For hybrids and projectiles it's easy to see the difference because they give you 75mm vs. 125mm vs. 150mm, all small weapons, but you can see the different caliber numbers.

However, laser calibers are named: Electron, Ion, and Neutron, so an Electron Small Pulse will do less DPS than a Neutron Small Pulse. And, staying with the same caliber, an Electron Small Pulse will do more damage at short range than an Electron Small Beam will do at long range.

But if you're comparing Electron Small Pulse with Neutron Small Beam, the Neutron might well do more damage even though it's a beam. It's like comparing a 75 mm blaster pea-shooter with a 150 mm rail (biggest frigate rail).
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-06-11 17:46:23 UTC
As Degnar wrote: right-click->Show Info. Tracking speed is one of its attributes.

If you do that on a fitted weapon in your ship, the tracking will include modifications by modules and your skils.
If you do that on a weapon that is not fitted (e.g. on the market), the tracking shown will not include these modifications, not even your skills. So be sure to compare apples with apples.

As for how much tracking affects you: it uses the same formula as falloff. A ship that's moving at your (effective) tracking speed is as hard to hit as a ship that's at optimal+1*falloff range: 50%. Ideally, you want to shot things that are moving at half your (effective) tracking speed or less.

Ace Menda wrote:
Pulse: low range with high DPS (Not damage but damage/sec)
Beam: long range with high alpha (so more actual damage. But lower DPS)
Love how people talk about alpha. (The damage done by each shot.)

They are wrong.

High alpha is a property of long range projectile weapons. But only projectile.

Long range energy (i.e. laser) weapons have exactly the same alpha as short range energy weapons.
And short range neutron blaster actually have the highest alpha of all hybrid weapons.
(Always assuming the same ammunition is used.)

Merouk Baas wrote:
However, laser calibers are named: Electron, Ion, and Neutron
You are confusing lasers with Blasters (short range hybrid weapons). Although you are right that lasers don't have a caliber in their name.

Please look it up before posting wrong information and confusing newbies.
If you are not willing to do that, don't post in a laser thread If you only fly Minmatar ships and just have vague memories about energy weapons.
Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-06-11 20:40:36 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
Are you comparing weapons of same caliber?

The categories are Small, Medium, Large, but within each category you have different calibers.

For hybrids and projectiles it's easy to see the difference because they give you 75mm vs. 125mm vs. 150mm, all small weapons, but you can see the different caliber numbers.

However, laser calibers are named: Electron, Ion, and Neutron, so an Electron Small Pulse will do less DPS than a Neutron Small Pulse. And, staying with the same caliber, an Electron Small Pulse will do more damage at short range than an Electron Small Beam will do at long range.

But if you're comparing Electron Small Pulse with Neutron Small Beam, the Neutron might well do more damage even though it's a beam. It's like comparing a 75 mm blaster pea-shooter with a 150 mm rail (biggest frigate rail).



THATS PROBABLY IT!!!!

Thanks dude. I am about positive that you nailed it. I wasn't even paying attention to those names....i was thinking they are just pretty names.......GOD I FEEL STUPID.

So are those the only three? Electron, Ion and Neutron? What is the order from lowest damage to highest damage?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-06-11 20:52:46 UTC
That post was talking about blasters. Lasers have their own naming conventions
Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-06-11 21:06:44 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
That post was talking about blasters. Lasers have their own naming conventions



lol. yeah I just figured that out when I went to evelopedia. I'm not at home right now...I can't look for myself.

My joy was premature.

But I was looking at the types of small laser turrets on evelopedia and...yeah I can't figure it out. I am intellectually back to my first or second post in this thread.

For some reason....(and I realize I am only fighting NPC's at the moment on career trainers no less) but it SEEMS that on both types of weapons....beams and lasers....that the dual's kill faster than the singles. I don't know why. Maybe it is just the way I fly and the way I line up my shots or maybe I am just better with higher rates of fire. Either way.....the numbers in the fitting window say I am doing LESS DPS......but the NPC's blow up WAY faster.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-06-11 21:19:07 UTC
it's most likely due to range or tracking issues, most likely the latter

There are 3 flavours of small pulse laser ordered from smallest to largest:

dual light pulse
gatling pulse
small focused pulse

Base optimal ranges for these in order are:

4000
4500
5000

in km

So using multifrequency ammo with no range enhancing modules means you will need to be within 2000, 2250 and 2500km respectively do be dealing full damage.

If we look at beam lasers now:

dual light beam 8750km
small focused beam 10000km

You also have to worry about tracking, the pulses have way better tracking than the beams so for up close and personal business they perform much better.

As for the difference between dual and non-dual laser calibers, I think you're orbiting at 500m on NPCs and the superior tracking of the dual lasers means you're hitting a lot better.
Enockx Kaine
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-06-12 03:27:43 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
it's most likely due to range or tracking issues, most likely the latter

There are 3 flavours of small pulse laser ordered from smallest to largest:

dual light pulse
gatling pulse
small focused pulse

Base optimal ranges for these in order are:

4000
4500
5000

in km

So using multifrequency ammo with no range enhancing modules means you will need to be within 2000, 2250 and 2500km respectively do be dealing full damage.

If we look at beam lasers now:

dual light beam 8750km
small focused beam 10000km

You also have to worry about tracking, the pulses have way better tracking than the beams so for up close and personal business they perform much better.

As for the difference between dual and non-dual laser calibers, I think you're orbiting at 500m on NPCs and the superior tracking of the dual lasers means you're hitting a lot better.



nah I tend to orbit at my optimal range. But here lately I have been watching a bunch of YouTube videos, so I have been trying to fly manually a little bit.....with some quick orbits, keep at range, and approches should I get turned around or flat out lost lol.
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