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First post First post
Author
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2013-06-09 19:21:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
T3's need tweaked in the areas that they're truly overpowered. Tank and DPS is not it.
Tank and DPS are most certainly it, since the T3 ships have absolutely no problems outperforming their equivalent T2 damage dealing cruisers (HACs).


Right, because having a ship that performs worse than another makes it flexible and adaptable. Seriously, lets call it what it is. It's definitely a nerf and not going to make T3's flexible and adaptable because they already are which is exactly why CCP wants to nerf them.

Sure, they might be able to perform a number of roles but we can all be sure it will be subpar....can't exactly say it will fill those roles.

My pleasure derived at flying a T3 is in the fact that I'm not flying a hull that I consider subpar and limited as I do with T2. Some hull has to be on top. It has to be top dog. That CCP is nerfing the current top dog irks me because of the investment I've made in skilling for those hulls. Once T2's become the top dog CCP will then again want to nerf those hulls devaluing any investment in time and isk I've made there and so on and so on. This is a case where CCP needs to leave well enough alone beyond a few tweaks.

Don't ban me, bro!

Lexmana
#82 - 2013-06-09 19:25:54 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
The popularity of a T3 comes from exactly what is saying needs to be fixed: adaptability & flexibility. These are exactly the reasons they're popular and yet CCP wants to fix that. I can only assume the fix will require some modification that encumbers them to all but specialty roles.

I think you missed the point but if what you say is true you need not to worry. All you need is to learn to read and quote better. I will help you (see below). However, if they are popular because they are a better answer than any other cruiser to almost any question in EVE then you need to prepare for a change.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Tech3s are due for a change, and are not meant to go above Tech2 in terms of raw performance (example: Warfare Subsystems, have a look why at the end of this blog).


CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Ideally all the sub-systems should have a proper role on the field, and Tech3 should be used because of their flexibility and adaptability, not because they surpass hulls of the same category at their specialized purpose.


Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2013-06-09 19:30:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mr Kidd wrote:
Right, because having a ship that performs worse than another makes it flexible and adaptable.
Having a ship that can decide what area it wants to perform in makes it flexible and adaptable.

The HAC has no choice; the T3 does. The HAC can only bring DPS and (depending on the ship) a bit of tank to the table. The T3 can counter this by not playing the HAC's game and instead bring ewar to the table, rendering that superior DPS and tank meaningless. So the enemy responds by bringing a Recon the next time, to which the T3 can counter by not playing the Recon's game and instead melt that silly paper ship with superior DPS and tank.

Quote:
Seriously, lets call it what it is. It's definitely a nerf
Of course it's a nerf. No-one has ever said anything else. That doesn't make it any less needed to correct the imbalance between the ships and put T3s where they belong in the larger ecology of ship choices.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-06-09 19:52:02 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
So you are saying that if there were the same number of T1 available on the market as x-types they would have the same price?
under the laws of demand and offer, if said supply was constantly restocked, X-type would probably go down to the same values of T1.

as an interesting by-product however, T1 would either drop in price further or stop being produced because of mineral values, unless there was a further mineral devaluation.

this is, however, theory. most probably the X-type, if supply managed to maintain the market volume, would replace pretty much everything below it in due time, any mods that had worse stats would either be sold below mineral value or shoved directly into the reprocessor.


all this to say that, no, price is not a balancing factor. availability is.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Aura of Ice
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2013-06-09 19:56:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Right, because having a ship that performs worse than another makes it flexible and adaptable.
Having a ship that can decide what area it wants to perform in makes it flexible and adaptable.



You say "decide"... but it's hardly ever a decision much different than the decision to bring another ship.

Everyone keeps touting this "jack of all trades, master of none" line while myopically ignoring such things as the inability to swap rigs (yes, I enjoy extra armor rep when I'm in my buffer fit. It is so useful) or having to switch subs in hangar...

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-06-09 20:49:53 UTC
"my ship costs the princely sum of 450 million, how dare you nerf it"

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2013-06-09 21:30:26 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Tippia wrote:


Quote:
T3's need tweaked in the areas that they're truly overpowered. Tank and DPS is not it.
Tank and DPS are most certainly it, since the T3 ships have absolutely no problems outperforming their equivalent T2 damage dealing cruisers (HACs).


Right, because having a ship that performs worse than another makes it flexible and adaptable. Seriously, lets call it what it is. It's definitely a nerf and not going to make T3's flexible and adaptable because they already are which is exactly why CCP wants to nerf them.

Sure, they might be able to perform a number of roles but we can all be sure it will be subpar....can't exactly say it will fill those roles.

My pleasure derived at flying a T3 is in the fact that I'm not flying a hull that I consider subpar and limited as I do with T2. Some hull has to be on top. It has to be top dog. That CCP is nerfing the current top dog irks me because of the investment I've made in skilling for those hulls. Once T2's become the top dog CCP will then again want to nerf those hulls devaluing any investment in time and isk I've made there and so on and so on. This is a case where CCP needs to leave well enough alone beyond a few tweaks.


Why exactly do you think a cruiser should have more buffer than a navy megathron?
Copper Rei
Copper Corp
Aggressively Passive Bears
#88 - 2013-06-09 21:59:04 UTC
My original hope was that CCP would realize the importance of the t3 and the flexibility of the ship.

In order to correct (aka fix) the situation with T3 overrunning people in sites and such.....simply make known space effect the t3 ships just as some worm space spatial effects do to known space ships.

Example...in worm space the t3 would benefit from it's intended purpose....omni-omni-omni to deal with sleepers....but in known space they would suffer from 75% reduction in bonuses or no bonuses at all.

Perhaps this would even the field for those who cry so hard about the T3 being OP and whatnot.

Blocking them from places that other cruiser class ships are allowed simply sucks since the adaptability and fitting options are why people fly the damn things to begin with.

Surely there are more creative solutions than just admin override 'click' and banned from h-sec sites.

The T3 came from outside the box...where did all the people go who created the T3 in the first place...break out their notes and review why they were created.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#89 - 2013-06-09 23:31:37 UTC
Copper Rei wrote:
Surely there are more creative solutions than just admin override 'click' and banned from h-sec sites.

But are they easier or not?

I'd love a new jumping animation, it's more creative than a loading bar.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-06-10 01:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
baltec1 wrote:


Why exactly do you think a cruiser should have more buffer than a navy megathron?


Maybe you're not putting the investment in mods and implants that people in T3's are?

A Navy Mega with similar faction/deadspace mods will out dps and tank a T3 with faction/deadspace mods. This is a case of comparing T2 fit ships and bling ships and wondering why the two don't perform similarly.

I've got a T2 fit Dominix (non-faction) that out tanks and out dps's my faction fit Proteus. In fact, that Dominix will tear that Proteus to shreds in a one on one fight. So, if you can't fit a faction BS properly, what makes you think you're informed enough to know what is balanced and what is not?

Up until the BC rebalance, I had a Myrm that could hold its own against Proteus's and Tengu's. It's noone's fault but CCP's that they took a perfectly fine BC and "rebalanced" it with subpar capabilities.

If my Proteus goes against a Pilgrim, guess who is going to win that fight? There's a pretty high chance I'm going to be capped out. No cap, no boom boom.

Those are 3 examples of a T1 BS, BC & T2 Cruiser able to defeat the overpowered T3.

So, excuse me if I feel a continuing rebalance is not in mine or anyone else's self interest. No, the only interests being served with the T3 rebalance is the inept's and CCP's which are often times one and the same.

Don't ban me, bro!

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2013-06-10 01:48:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
I'm too depressed to respond./argue. I''ve already prepared an open spot in my space paperweight collection, (for my Tengu) right next to my Dominix and unneeded Arazu.

Tippia wrote:
Having a ship that can decide what area it wants to perform in makes it flexible and adaptable.



And, if my ships become self-aware, I'm calling a priest.
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#92 - 2013-06-10 02:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sanadras Riahn
Copper Rei wrote:
Surely there are more creative solutions than just admin override 'click' and banned from h-sec sites.


And I'd be willing to bet that as soon as the T3 balance changes actually go into effect, that banned-from-high-sec-sites issue will be removed.

Mr Kidd wrote:
So, excuse me if I feel a continuing rebalance is not in mine or anyone else's self interest. No, the only interests being served with the T3 rebalance is the inept's and CCP's which are often times one and the same.



You're just an angry little person, aren't you. Of course a nerf to your favorite ship isn't in your best interest, because it nerfs the ship you want to stay OP.

You're really just talking in circles at this point; your argument has devolved into "but other ships can beat it, so it's not OP!" Let's just be grateful you're not actually in charge of the balancing at CCP, or this game would be broken beyond belief.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2013-06-10 02:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Copper Rei wrote:
Surely there are more creative solutions than just admin override 'click' and banned from h-sec sites.


And I'd be willing to bet that as soon as the T3 balance changes actually go into effect, that banned-from-high-sec-sites issue will be removed.

Mr Kidd wrote:
So, excuse me if I feel a continuing rebalance is not in mine or anyone else's self interest. No, the only interests being served with the T3 rebalance is the inept's and CCP's which are often times one and the same.



You're just an angry little person, aren't you. Of course a nerf to your favorite ship isn't in your best interest, because it nerfs the ship you want to stay OP.

You're really just talking in circles at this point; your argument has devolved into "but other ships can beat it, so it's not OP!" Let's just be grateful you're not actually in charge of the balancing at CCP, or this game would be broken beyond belief.


Actually, my favorite ship is my Mega, followed by my Dominix and my triple rep Myrm. My Proteus is the realization of certain realities of w-space life.

Wait, you're going to completely ignore that non-T3's can beat T3's and then go on to tell me my argument has no merit? Do you even PVP.......and win? Or is this a case where you lost to a T3, have no clue why and therefore support nerfing them because obviously you're a PVP God and if you lost it's surely because they're overpowered?

Don't ban me, bro!

Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#94 - 2013-06-10 02:30:14 UTC
Anybody remember Insta's?

I spent hundreds of millions of iskies on insta's for whole regions. Damn warp to 0.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-06-10 02:50:25 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:


price is NEVER a performance measurement, if it was, marauders would be destroying capital ships like they were frigates and would be impervious to any sub capital ship.


Pirate noob ships.

'nuff said

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#96 - 2013-06-10 03:22:29 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
[Actually, my favorite ship is my Mega, followed by my Dominix and my triple rep Myrm. My Proteus is the realization of certain realities of w-space life.

Wait, you're going to completely ignore that non-T3's can beat T3's and then go on to tell me my argument has no merit? Do you even PVP.......and win? Or is this a case where you lost to a T3, have no clue why and therefore support nerfing them because obviously you're a PVP God and if you lost it's surely because they're overpowered?


I actually haven't yet gotten in to PvP, barring my short stint in Null. I've been spending a good deal of time getting a steady stream of ISK set up before I get into PvP, knowing full well it's going to end in my ship exploding many, many times before I ever get a grasp on how to play effectively.

However, I've been studying game design for some time, have been reading relevant blog posts by the developers, feedback from other players, watching T3s myself, and seeing your own posts. It doesn't take a PvP expert to understand that T3's aren't working as intended. You know how I know? Because the developers of the game themselves have said that T3's aren't working as intended.

Because I understand my inexperience with the ships themselves, I've made no attempt to crunch numbers and provide specifics, but instead suggest interesting ways to make T3s fit into a particular design that CCP has said they want: cruiser-level ability to do several roles. Adaptability and generalization. And in good game design, "adaptability and generalization" means that something should be able to do multiple things, oft-times all at once, but will never be the best in that particular field. Instead, specializing (i.e., T2 ships) should allow the ships to perform exceptionally at their intended purpose, but very very poorly in any other role.

I agree 100% that T3's need work, and I agree that it's going to take some serious work on CCP's part to ensure that they're not only viable, but also unique in their performance and fun to fly. I also understand that as a Cruiser-class hull, T3's can do certain things far better than they should be able to (hence OP), while also understanding that in certain areas, the T3's are severely lacking.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#97 - 2013-06-10 03:33:53 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
I actually haven't yet gotten in to PvP, barring my short stint in Null.

Sanadras Riahn wrote:
It doesn't take a PvP expert to understand that T3's aren't working as intended.

Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Because I understand my inexperience with the ships themselves, I've made no attempt to crunch numbers and provide specifics,

Great credentials.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#98 - 2013-06-10 03:39:27 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Great credentials.


Because ship-to-ship PvP is the single solitary facet to EVE Online, right?

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#99 - 2013-06-10 03:40:24 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Great credentials.

Because ship-to-ship PvP is the single solitary facet to EVE Online, right?

Being a great miner has bonuses when considering the capabilities of a T3 cruiser.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-06-10 03:44:19 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Great credentials.

Because ship-to-ship PvP is the single solitary facet to EVE Online, right?

Being a great miner has bonuses when considering the capabilities of a T3 cruiser.


Because a scientist working on a virus through a microscope will readily admit (and has done so) that working in the real world with patients is martian science. In other words, experience is important.