EVE General Discussion

Moral boundaries for the most part don't exist in EvE, it's a game that allows the cut throats to operate almost unmolested.

But making a game that women can see a benefit to play has a positive side to it, as it can increase the sense of community. It'll bring more socialization, which is the goal of having a MMO.

EvE tends to get lost in the effect more than the little quality of life features that make a game enjoyable. One negative aspect that needs taming is the paranoia (which isn't healthy). That happens when "evil" is allowed to continue without a good counter, and better socialization would help. It also would add a better and more complex human element...that the enemy isn't regarded as some evil or thug, but an enemy no different than you.

Heheh! Kudos to you for sticking it out after that rather... explosive introduction to the game!

Agreed.

To be honest, part of what makes EvE what it is, is the ever-present risk whenever you undock. It's integral to the whole underlying nature of EvE. Those of us who aren't interested in engaging in combat simply have to learn strategies for escaping when attacked. And accept that sometimes these won't work. But to truly enjoy EvE, you have to be able to embrace the risk and enjoy it. Treat it as a challenge. I'm really sorry you're thinking of leaving EvE because of this. I kind of wish you'd reconsider, but if it's not for you, it's not for you, and I sincerely hope you find another MMO that gives you the fun, interaction and gameplay that you enjoy.

That one line goes right to the heart of this discussion. Lack of respect for players (as opposed to characters) based purely on their gender.

I've been interested in this topic for a long time, and there's just one thing wrong with all these studies. If these traits are determined genetically, who determines who gets to mate?

Cultural norms are enforced by childhood beatings, peer pressure, and socio-economic punishments.

A woman in a hunter-gatherer society who wants to hunt, will probably not be allowed to do so, and a man who is gentle and wants to do "women's work" will be called weak and told he must toughen up or he'll never get a wife. However the two are perfect for each other. Will they find each other and complement each other, or will they both become so crippled by societal pressures that they are unable to provide for themselves or their children?

The fact that this variance in human potential and preferences still exists, only proves that diversity is stronger than normativity.

In a hunter-gatherer society... Aside from pregnancy and breastfeeding, they could technically do the job of the other if trained to do so. Except a woman is stinkier than a man once a month, which might cause trouble on the hunter's job. Many children are needed to ensure that some will live through to adulthood and perpetuate the species, so women get stuck at home breastfeeding for as long as possible, pumping out more and more children as they can. So even though a woman could be the hunter and the man could be the cook and caretaker, it's slightly more efficient to do it the "normal" way. Some rarer societies did do it the other way around however, and their hunters were known to be fierce warriors. Some societies trained both men and women to fight, because every able body was needed.

Now, in an agrarian society, it's much harder for a woman to do the work of a man - but that's because of the needs of raising children NOT because of HER physical or intellectual capability for the work itself. She has to stay closer to home to breastfeed the many children that are needed to ensure that some of the children live to adulthood, so she is naturally expected to also supervise. Carrying heavy children around means she can't also carry heavy things around, that's simply too much work for one person. So the man carries heavy things - not because the woman can't, but because the woman will be expected to carry *other* heavy things! The man works the fields and is away from the home for a great part of the day, sometimes riding days away to mend fences, find green pasture, travel to a trade hub, or look for a lost animal. The woman simply can't be away from the children for that long, so a man has to do those things, and defend his country in war. But she is perfectly capable of doing a man's work if there were not children to consider. And a man is perfectly capable of cooking, cleaning, weaving, and making soap.

In an industrial society, it makes no difference who does the work, much of it is purely mental, and telecommuting means that if a woman is at home breastfeeding a young child, she can still work. Technology means that a woman who must physically be at work can send her milk home for her children. We need less children than an agrarian society does, because less children die, so a woman has more time to need another career. We need at least two paychecks to raise children anyway. This means that our original "opposite role" hunter-gatherer couple are now freed to find happiness with each other more easily. A raised standard of living offers freedom to everyone to enjoy work they find fulfilling. Everyone that is, except for the wage slaves who keep the wheels of progress cheap enough for others to afford. But again, let's not get into a discussion of poverty.

So what we see here, is that in every society up until now, women are enslaved to the needs of children. Men found their purpose in relation to the slavery of women - either as oppressors or protectors. But now women can be freed, and men can also be freed of dependence on keeping women in slavery for their self-identity. The chain is also attached to the one who chains. Remember that.

Maybe because you never left hicksville?

What?

Good point, although I'm not sure nature did have it in perfect balance, there were always people who felt constrained by the norm. I stated it that way because it does seem to me that some men do find identity from the oppression of women and a lot of the anger and backlash (and the not--actually-funny joking) happens when that identity is gone. Or maybe it's just as women entered the workforce men's pressure to provide wasn't, well, provided for anymore. But why would there be so much hatred then?

I am guessing Xeraph is referring to the introduction of contraception, which enabled women to choose whether or not to have children. Whether calling it slavery is extreme or not is a whole heated debate on its own ^^

Self-identity is a different matter, many people define themselves as "Mother, Wife" or "Husband, Father", which is defining yourself by your relationship to others.

that's pretty much the heart of the problem, among the members of any particular heterogeneous group there's no need for sensitivities, but when the interaction encompasses multiple groups, people of different ethnicity, nationalities and genders that's when it becomes uncomfortable and requires sensible people to call it out. eve lacks people who are willing to make the sacrifice of telling others on voice coms that they should either be respectful or shut up.

CCP shouldnt punish players who are making personal attacks they would in no way ever try to do should that other person be in front of them, that punishment is on the players to hand out. specially since most of the player interaction doesn't happen using in game means. (ofc CCP should intervene and has in the past, when the communication is via chat or game comms.)

yeah, eve is about being an *******, we all get it. but there's a limit and we're all well aware of where it is, if someone needs someone else to see where that line is drawn, then that someone needs to make an appointment with a therapist.

Keeping in mind the old adage that the plural of anecdote is not data, I figured I'd throw in my 2 cents, in case they are at all helpful...

I'd also like to state up front that most of the people I've met in EVE Online are some of the nicest (in the most bloodthirsty, pod-exploding way) and friendly folks around. And they are all male.

I'm a woman who recently (in the last few months) started playing EVE. I've been reading some of the discussion lately and seen a lot of reasoning. I thought I might give my personal viewpoints on that (speaking only for myself, of course):

1. The topic that "it's too hard for girls" - well, no. Being a newbie in EVE is hard for anyone, and not everyone who picks up EVE sticks with it. But it's hard enough without gender issues. Then add the gender issues...

2. EVE "doesn't appeal to women". I really doubt that. At least, it appeals to me... I do think, however, that most of the fun stuff in EVE requires a good corporation. A good corp can make or break a new player's interest in the game (because mining...). It is also harder to find, because a) you are somewhat less valuable as a player and b) you don't have the knowledge and experience to identify a good corp. Then add finding a good newb-friendly corp that feels welcoming/safe to a female player. It's an extra hurdle in an already steep acclimation process. Required voice comms also make it hard to test the waters before you make yourself a target.

3. "Because Sci-Fi!" - it's really more "because intimidating", I think. I'm an introverted, cerebral type who enjoys spaceships, immersive games and mastering knowledge/skills related to them. A sci-fi spaceship game like EVE is perfect for me. However, I don't have the confidence to shrug off or overcompensate for other people's insecurities/prejudices. Honestly, I shouldn't have to be. I'm just a geek that wants to spend my free time flying space ships, not dealing with sexism. So, for others such as myself, who seem to me to be at least part of the demographic that would love to play EVE, it can be off-putting to realise how heavily male-dominated most of the significant corps/alliances are. In my case, my experience has taught me that the lower the % of women in a given social group, the more likely it is that I'm going to be treated differently because I'm a woman. I've found that most male gamers are not sexist, but they tend to not mind when other men are being sexist. So when you're a girl in that situation, you feel really alone. And I hate that. I imagine others do too.

4. I've seen a lot of articles and posts saying that women are more social and need extra social stuff. I'm not so sure on the extra, to be honest... not because women aren't social - they are! I just don't think men are any less social. It's just easier for them to find social groups within games that aren't predominantly composed of the opposite sex (go figure...)

5. If I had to make one suggestion on how to get more women into EVE, it would be to get more women into EVE... most of us try a new game because we know someone who plays. (Side note, this is where much of the "boyfriend myth" comes from - because so many women start playing a game because their boyfriend plays, a lot of people assume women are just mindlessly following a partner - but many guys started playing because of their (usually male) friends. Doesn't mean they're not 'really' into gaming...) When women play games, they tell their friends, who are often other women. I've dragged three girls into different MMOs who might never have tried them otherwise, but who are hopelessly addicted to them now. (I'm a horrible person, I know :P) We drag our friends into trying the things we love, give them help and advice, and some of them stick around, others don't. Women tend to have more female friends. (Obviously this is a gross generalisation - but I think you get my point).

TL;DR: Playing an MMO alone is kinda boring, regardless of gender. Lack of other women exacerbates already significant barrier of entry to new female players. Don't really have a simple, brilliant solution to this...

* I'm posting this on an alt because I would like to be able to keep playing this game.

I think if there was a simple and brilliant way to get more women into EVE, it would be for everyone to have that attitude.

So much this. I'm female and have played or come across the female stereotypes mentioned. They do exist. There male versions also exist especially the 'drama' one. In my previous MMO male and females ended up being kicked for drama and in my experience there are as many 'drama kings' as their are queens.

I'm also one who started posting with an alt. Two reasons mostly. One I was warned from the get go about the 'meta game' that can take place on the forums and me being new to the game means I'm pretty clueless as to what may or may not happen. The other reason is more pertinent to the thread topic. In the past in other games I have posted under my main and I suppose because I have no issue with people knowing I'm female have had to deal with creeps who have found out through the forums and been bothered both in and out of the game. It sucks that this sort of thing happens because the majority of people are great. The people I currently play with are great. It only takes one though to make things annoying and difficult. Posting with an alt just removes the possibility of it happening here.

This sort of issue is larger then just an EVE issue. It's the type of thing that a good many female gamers I know have dealt with to some extent if they've been playing games for a long time. Comes with the territory sort of thing. I could relay some really awful stories. The good news is that over the past couple of years awareness of these sorts of issues is up. It's topic of conversations more now then before. A good many men are aware and have become aware of a lot of the crap and a good many groups just don't put up with it anymore. As some have already commented there is a difference between good natured joshing among friends, those that respect each other and the type of joshing that comes from a place that lacks respect. It's not hard to figure out, especially as a women who has regularly encountered both throughout my life, which is which.