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Broteau to be extradited

Author
Anslo
Scope Works
#81 - 2013-06-07 15:20:40 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
The first Republic incursion was an attempt to bring Midular back to a Republic hospital, wasn't it? I think that might be why Arsten says there was only one attempt to get Broteau.


Naw, first was to get the shooter. I was in the FCORD fleet.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#82 - 2013-06-07 18:46:26 UTC
Morwen Lagann wrote:
Philadunc Arsten wrote:

Fred, I know of Colelie, being one example of the Republlic trying to get Broteau, into its own hands, what's the other one?


The first time the Republic Fleet barged into Federation space without authorization, CONCORD showed up and told them to **** right off - which, thankfully, they did.

The portion of the Navy stationed in the Algintal constellation was not so lucky to have CONCORD's timely intervention the second time the Republic came knocking.


Which should really be questioned given that it was in exactly the same system AND Information got into the public domain about the intention of the Republic Fleet to cross the border at a specific time in a specific system a lot earlier than it did in the initial fleet.

CONCORD can respond in a matter of Seconds to Capsuleer Aggression and they had the relevant information well ahead of time yet somehow only managed to show up once the Republic Fleet was completely destroyed to prevent opportunistic capsuleers from finishing off the Gallente Dreadnoughts.

Just why did it take CONCORD so long to respond the second time?

Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#83 - 2013-06-07 19:47:15 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


Just why did it take CONCORD so long to respond the second time?



Capsuleers can pay a few hundred mil ISK to make CONCORD look the other way in their 'sanctioned wars'. You think empires do not do the same? Your CONCORD is corrupt to the core. They are bought off at every turn. Even at the end of that battle it was obvious. The CONCORD officer threatened to fire on anyone who fired at the Federation dread's despite them being legal targets. If that doesn't tell you the Feds bought CONCORD wholesale for that day, then I have no idea what will.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#84 - 2013-06-07 20:07:58 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


Just why did it take CONCORD so long to respond the second time?



Capsuleers can pay a few hundred mil ISK to make CONCORD look the other way in their 'sanctioned wars'. You think empires do not do the same? Your CONCORD is corrupt to the core. They are bought off at every turn. Even at the end of that battle it was obvious. The CONCORD officer threatened to fire on anyone who fired at the Federation dread's despite them being legal targets. If that doesn't tell you the Feds bought CONCORD wholesale for that day, then I have no idea what will.


Something smells really really bad in your post. I think it's your failed logic.

Why the hell would the Navy "buy off" CONCORD so that they could lose ships to an illegal invasion force? One would think it would be preferable for the Navy if the Republic's fleet had been annihilated immediately when they opened fire.

CONCORD intervenes in cases of violations of the Yulai Convention and illegal combat involving independent capsuleers, not those properly and fully affiliated with the Empires. At the point that the DED showed up and told people to cut their **** out, the outcome of the battle had already been determined and further fighting was unnecessary.

Funny how you all whine about how CONCORD encourages wholesale slaughter, and then spin on your heels and complain when CONCORD does exactly what you're complaining it doesn't do.

Get the hell out of this thread before you make yourself look like even more of an idiot, Polevhia. Clearly your little 'network' isn't doing much for your intellect.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque

Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#85 - 2013-06-07 20:20:55 UTC
The tensions between the Federation and the Republic are being engineered by a faction inside the Federation. Time will prove me right.

CONCORD was not bribed with the intent of losing Moros', but they were paid off to come and step in to protect the remaining ones from entirely legal Capsuleer action. I do not buy this"they stepped in because the result of the battle was obvious so no further fighting was needed" crap and neither should anyone else. How many thousands in 'high security' space die each day due to fights being finished when the outcome was known from the start? CONCORD shows up to save the day in high sec within seconds all the time. That is unless they are paid their blood money.

When are you people going to learn that you haven given CONCORD ultimate power over you, and the only oversight of CONCORD is CONCORD themselves. They don't care about you. They never had. It is about power and ISK with them.
Anslo
Scope Works
#86 - 2013-06-07 20:28:26 UTC
The same time you realize how silly it sounds to listen to a toaster pre-programmed to hate CONCORD that is telling us how evil CONCORD is while stealing people from their homes and invading systems and killing even more.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#87 - 2013-06-07 20:46:04 UTC
Anslo wrote:
The same time you realize how silly it sounds to listen to a toaster pre-programmed to hate CONCORD that is telling us how evil CONCORD is while stealing people from their homes and invading systems and killing even more.


One day you might even learn who I am, where I come from, what I think and believe. You might understand the thoughts I have, the reasons for those thoughts, and what I believe that hasn't changed after I joined TS-F.

But I can tell that today is not that day.
Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#88 - 2013-06-07 21:01:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Darkefyre
Morwen Lagann wrote:

CONCORD intervenes in cases of violations of the Yulai Convention and illegal combat involving independent capsuleers, not those properly and fully affiliated with the Empires. At the point that the DED showed up and told people to cut their **** out, the outcome of the battle had already been determined and further fighting was unnecessary.


That's my entire point. In the previous incident, CONCORD showed up before it could escalate to shots being fired because it was a Yulai Breach waiting to happen.

Much like the CONCORD Battleship shot down over Caldari Prime when it was investigating a potential Yulai Breach.

The second incident, there was public warning several hours beforehand of where and when the Republic Fleet was coming into Gallente Territory. Certainly more than enough time for CONCORD to be in place to step in sooner. With the previous Incident, there was also just cause to believe that the Warning was credible enough to not be dismissed out of hand as a lunatic fantasy.

It took the DED 48 Minutes to arrive on field from the time of the first shots being fired, I believe this was 16 Minutes after the fleet jumped into Colelie however I cannot find logs going further back than 20:04 on that day. In comparison, the DED was on the scene within 18 Minutes of the Minmatar Fleet jumping into Colelie during the first incident.

Almost an Hours difference in response time. Same System. Had the response time been consistent with the first incident, DED should have been on the field before the first Dreadnought was destroyed, perhaps even before the first shots were fired.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-06-07 23:26:37 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

Read up a bit. For the record, I'm killing Republic citizens, not Federation citizens.


Life is life, no different from your friend Leon that you whine about. As I said it's all crocodile tears.

Oh look mass-murderer Akahoshi is sad that thousands of Gallente crew died, while gleefully spacing thousands of Minmatar crews. Let me get my violin.

Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

In any case, I still don't think you understand the distinction. I don't know why I keep trying to get you to understand, probably boredom. It's really very simple, though:

I engage in CONCORD-authorized warfare on behalf of corporations in exchange for money. This is all perfectly legal, and goes through the proper channels. I do not hide the fact that my aim is to shoot at my targets - CONCORD legislates that I am prominently marked out as "hostile" in their overviews.

The Republic moved a fleet into Federation territory and opened fire on the Federation, an ally. This was done in violation of CONCORD law. No declaration of war was made on behalf of the Republic against the Federation - this was a sneak attack, a "blue on blue", if you would. The equivalent of your room-mate deciding that you've done them wrong and shooting you.

Surely you can understand the difference.


As a Concord-sanctioned enemy of both the Republic and the Federation your opinion on Republic-Federation dealings is null and void.

You are asking your declared enemies to give a crap about what you think, which frankly, they don't.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-06-08 17:32:46 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

It took the DED 48 Minutes to arrive on field from the time of the first shots being fired, I believe this was 16 Minutes after the fleet jumped into Colelie however I cannot find logs going further back than 20:04 on that day. In comparison, the DED was on the scene within 18 Minutes of the Minmatar Fleet jumping into Colelie during the first incident.

Almost an Hours difference in response time. Same System. Had the response time been consistent with the first incident, DED should have been on the field before the first Dreadnought was destroyed, perhaps even before the first shots were fired.


Well, half an hour's difference in response time, but I basically agree with you. Had CONCORD responded more rapidly, they may have been able to stop the incident.

At the same time, the real issue isn't that CONCORD didn't arrive to stop the Republic Fleet from opening fire on the Federation Navy. The real issue is that the Republic Fleet opened fire on the Federation Navy.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Mika Firestorm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Logistics
#91 - 2013-06-08 17:48:09 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

It took the DED 48 Minutes to arrive on field from the time of the first shots being fired, I believe this was 16 Minutes after the fleet jumped into Colelie however I cannot find logs going further back than 20:04 on that day. In comparison, the DED was on the scene within 18 Minutes of the Minmatar Fleet jumping into Colelie during the first incident.

Almost an Hours difference in response time. Same System. Had the response time been consistent with the first incident, DED should have been on the field before the first Dreadnought was destroyed, perhaps even before the first shots were fired.


Well, half an hour's difference in response time, but I basically agree with you. Had CONCORD responded more rapidly, they may have been able to stop the incident.

At the same time, the real issue isn't that CONCORD didn't arrive to stop the Republic Fleet from opening fire on the Federation Navy. The real issue is that the Republic Fleet opened fire on the Federation Navy.

This isn't issue, really.
Five years ago minmatars attacked CONCORD itself. That was an issue.

State the nature of your medical emergency

Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#92 - 2013-06-08 18:58:16 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

At the same time, the real issue isn't that CONCORD didn't arrive to stop the Republic Fleet from opening fire on the Federation Navy. The real issue is that the Republic Fleet opened fire on the Federation Navy.


In that, I can agree. Given the history between the Federation and the Republic, the greatest tragedy that day is that someone decided it would be a good idea to hit the big red button.

We can argue back and forth about whether they were right or wrong to hit the button. We can argue about what we could have done to avoid the situation even happening in the first place. We can argue about what we could have done to reduce casualties after the fact.

Or, we can focus on the simple fact that over 100,000 Crewmen died on the ships lost that day for what was effectively nothing and look at what can be done to ensure that such a situation cannot happen again.

Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#93 - 2013-06-08 20:11:48 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


Or, we can focus on the simple fact that over 100,000 Crewmen died on the ships lost that day for what was effectively nothing and look at what can be done to ensure that such a situation cannot happen again.



Not as many died that day as official estimates sugguest. Many indeed were rescued by myself and other forces. The officials just choose to assume incorrectly that those who are alive and well in my care are dead. There were severe injuries to many. After hostilities ended I had to travel quickly to proper medical facilities.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-06-08 21:00:49 UTC
Mika Firestorm wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

At the same time, the real issue isn't that CONCORD didn't arrive to stop the Republic Fleet from opening fire on the Federation Navy. The real issue is that the Republic Fleet opened fire on the Federation Navy.

This isn't issue, really.
Five years ago minmatars attacked CONCORD itself. That was an issue.


Let's be fair. It wasn't the Minmatar that attacked CONCORD, it was the Republic.

In any case, you're right to some extent: the real issue is that Shakor's Republic has acquired the habit of considering alliances and treaties as mere suggestions which can be ignored with no consequences. Though I suppose if there are no consequences - and really, what consequences have their been for either Colelie or Yulai - what does that say about the rest of us?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Mika Firestorm
Your Friendly Neighborhood Logistics
#95 - 2013-06-08 23:39:46 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Mika Firestorm wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

At the same time, the real issue isn't that CONCORD didn't arrive to stop the Republic Fleet from opening fire on the Federation Navy. The real issue is that the Republic Fleet opened fire on the Federation Navy.

This isn't issue, really.
Five years ago minmatars attacked CONCORD itself. That was an issue.


Let's be fair. It wasn't the Minmatar that attacked CONCORD, it was the Republic.

In any case, you're right to some extent: the real issue is that Shakor's Republic has acquired the habit of considering alliances and treaties as mere suggestions which can be ignored with no consequences. Though I suppose if there are no consequences - and really, what consequences have their been for either Colelie or Yulai - what does that say about the rest of us?

You are right here. Of course, it's not the peoples, but the government, what makes them do the things.
Unfortunately, there won't be any consequences. Not for Colelie, neither for Luminaire, nor for Yulai, because both Federation and Republic are parts of CONCORD.
And even if there will be some consequences, they will be for regular citizens, but corrupt governments will leave the story with 'clean hands'. Millions of innocent lives are lost because their machinations, and more will follow.
What you can do about them? Go war against them? It won't do anything. You kill their peoples, but do you think it will affect governments in any way? Nah, they will sacrifice even their own peoples for their plans. Just like Federation sacrificed them in Luminaire. Just like Republic sacrificed them in Colelie.
But what we can do, is help those, who were wronged, injured or hurt. And, of course, we can hope, that one day these governments will be changed.

State the nature of your medical emergency

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#96 - 2013-06-09 12:52:19 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Morwen Lagann wrote:

CONCORD intervenes in cases of violations of the Yulai Convention and illegal combat involving independent capsuleers, not those properly and fully affiliated with the Empires. At the point that the DED showed up and told people to cut their **** out, the outcome of the battle had already been determined and further fighting was unnecessary.


That's my entire point. In the previous incident, CONCORD showed up before it could escalate to shots being fired because it was a Yulai Breach waiting to happen.

Much like the CONCORD Battleship shot down over Caldari Prime when it was investigating a potential Yulai Breach.

The second incident, there was public warning several hours beforehand of where and when the Republic Fleet was coming into Gallente Territory. Certainly more than enough time for CONCORD to be in place to step in sooner. With the previous Incident, there was also just cause to believe that the Warning was credible enough to not be dismissed out of hand as a lunatic fantasy.

It took the DED 48 Minutes to arrive on field from the time of the first shots being fired, I believe this was 16 Minutes after the fleet jumped into Colelie however I cannot find logs going further back than 20:04 on that day. In comparison, the DED was on the scene within 18 Minutes of the Minmatar Fleet jumping into Colelie during the first incident.

Almost an Hours difference in response time. Same System. Had the response time been consistent with the first incident, DED should have been on the field before the first Dreadnought was destroyed, perhaps even before the first shots were fired.


CONCORD incoherent discrepancies in most of their recent armed reactions are disturbing.
BloodBird
Duty.
Stay Feral
#97 - 2013-06-09 14:25:29 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:


Or, we can focus on the simple fact that over 100,000 Crewmen died on the ships lost that day for what was effectively nothing and look at what can be done to ensure that such a situation cannot happen again.



Not as many died that day as official estimates sugguest. Many indeed were rescued by myself and other forces. The officials just choose to assume incorrectly that those who are alive and well in my care are dead.


They are dead. If they were not they would be back home by now.

Unless you presume to tell us that you will honor their wishes and let them return home after your little kidnapping spree?

Somehow I doubt that this will happen. What WILL happen however is that you will conjure some lie about them all, to the very last, opting to stay with the Sansha. Yep, indeed all of them did just that, did they not?

There are a few options here.

1) By now they are completely unable to make any choices on their own and may as well be dead.
2) They are dead in the clinical sense.
3) You are still keeping them at this point with no plans to let them go home, likely ending with options one or two, most likely option one.
4) You are in fact going to let them go. Eventually. You just have no done so yet, because... why?

What's twice as tragic to these people's families is not just that they were onboard ships that were destroyed in an illegal invasion of the Federation by the Republic, thus either defending their homeland from an unjust assault or taking part in said assault, no what's worse for these people is that they had the extreme bad luck to have their life-boats picked up or themselves removed from the pressurized air-pockets they were in by people like you, Sansha.

Now they are not just dead, a fate that would be tragic considering the situation they were all in, now they are in the hands of the enemies of Humanity and are likely never going to see their homes again. Much like the millions of civilians the provists kidnapped after Heth came to power 5 years ago, none of their kin will know their ultimate fate. This is far worse than knowing that they are dead.

Unless ofc you feel like being 'kind and compassionate' about this and let them go, I somehow find the idea that the Sansha will let trained and dedicated military personnel from two factions hostile to you go back to their homes were a return to service awaits those able.

I have been wrong and positively surprised in the past however, from time to time. Perhaps today will be another case?
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#98 - 2013-06-09 15:57:36 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
CONCORD incoherent discrepancies in most of their recent armed reactions are disturbing.


That's what I've been saying for a while but no one listens. Too busy judging books by their covers to see the content.

BloodBird wrote:
Unless you presume to tell us that you will honor their wishes and let them return home after your little kidnapping spree?


Just like you would return my brethren to Stain? We both know that never happens. Stop pretending you are sitting on some sort of high ground.
BloodBird
Duty.
Stay Feral
#99 - 2013-06-09 18:04:34 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
BloodBird wrote:
Unless you presume to tell us that you will honor their wishes and let them return home after your little kidnapping spree?


Just like you would return my brethren to Stain? We both know that never happens. Stop pretending you are sitting on some sort of high ground.


There are no 'brethren' of yours to return anywhere, that I am aware of.

Thank you for proving my point however. The crews you have kidnapped would be better of having died. It would be quicker, less traumatic and their next of kin would be more at peace with that outcome.

Do not ever presume to tell me or anyone else you have 'rescued' or 'helped' or 'saved' anyone ever again. You have no humanitarian angle to play because Sansha don't DO the whole human thing.

You got involved in the affairs of others and stole a number of people away to a fate worse than death. Now, anyone ignorant of that fact will see more clearly and your lies are a bit more transparent.

By the way, we will be wanting our activists back some day as well.
Sofia Roseburn
Verdant Inquiries
#100 - 2013-06-09 18:40:01 UTC
How ironic that someone who, by definition, has progressed to a trans-human state is attempting to lecture others on how inhumane they are. Take a look at your own circumstance and actions before you attempt to try and lay out an argument based on hearsay and decade old "facts".

You're sounding more and more like an advocate of the freespace movement every time something tumbles out of your mouth.