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Odyssey L4 Battleships (Low-Med SP)
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Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#1 - 2013-06-08 10:10:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sanadras Riahn
** SORRY! I posted this in the wrong forum when I had too may tabs open! Meant for the Ships and Modules boards. If needs be, please delete this thread. If it's still valid here, I still appreciate the feedback. **

So, now that the T1 Battleships have all been jumbled around, I'm trying to get back into what would be best for L4s as a Low-Med SP Mission Runner. A lot of the old fits are now outdated due to the T1 ship changes; I've, therefore, been coming up with some fit ideas, and wanted some feedback on what you think would be best.

Some things to consider for the Mission runner when grading these fits:

1) Ease of use
2) Speed of mission completion
3) Ease of Upgrade
4) Ability to transfer into Incursions
5) Cost (since these should be lower skilled)

And now, the ships:

*** NOTE: I seem to have left off the Drones; just assume 5 Hob Iis and 5 Hammie IIs ***

[Maelstrom, Ody PvE]

8x 1200mm Heavy 'Scout' Artillery I (EMP L)

Tracking Computer II
2x Kinetic Deflection Field II
Thermic Dissipation Field II
X-Large Shield Booster II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)

4x Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Large Projectile Collision Accelerator I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

****

[Megathron, Ody PvE]

7x 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun (Antimatter Charge L)

100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script)

Large Armor Repairer II
2x Armor Kinetic Hardener II
2x Armor Thermic Hardener II
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I


****

[Hyperion, Ody PvE]

6x 425mm Prototype Gauss Gun (Antimatter Charge L)

100MN Afterburner II
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script)
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)
Sensor Booster II

Large Armor Repairer II
2x Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
3x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I
Large Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

****

[Abaddon, Ody PvE]

8x Mega Modulated Energy Beam I (Multifrequency L)

100MN Afterburner II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II (Cap Booster 800)
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script)

Large Armor Repairer II
2x Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
3x Heat Sink II

2x Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I

****

[Apocalypse, Apoc PvE Ody Experiment]

8x Mega Modulated Energy Beam I (Standard L)

Large Micro Jump Drive
Cap Recharger II
2x Tracking Computer II (Optimal Range Script)

Large Armor Repairer II
2x Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
3x Heat Sink II

3x Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

****

Now my questions for you.

* I'm getting the best DPS out of all of these fits from the Abaddon (496 before drones), but the Cap sucks so very very badly (just under 3 minutes with everything running, Stable 50% without the Repper running). How do I improve the Abaddon's capacitor problems?

* The Maelstrom's tank is IMMENSE: 954 DPS against Guristas. How would I go about shrinking the tank and upping the gank?

* The Megathron appears to have the best balance of Tank vs. Gank; 667 DPS against Guristas Tank, 441 DPS Gank. Does it see much use outside of missions, into Incursions?

Any and all suggestions on any of the fits would be appreciated, as one of these will end up being my own.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Illiar D'Anaari
Lassandar
#2 - 2013-06-08 12:24:08 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
[i]* I'm getting the best DPS out of all of these fits from the Abaddon (496 before drones), but the Cap sucks so very very badly (just under 3 minutes with everything running, Stable 50% without the Repper running). How do I improve the Abaddon's capacitor problems?


There's a few important things to note about the fit you linked.
1- Pulse are great once you get T2 guns, because of scorch. Prior to that, they are sub par for missions, with the exception (kinda) of the apoc, due to its range bonus. For the Abaddon, I'd suggest beams until you can fit mega pulses II.
2- The TC you fit on it were probably to go around what I said just above, but this links to your cap problems. Fitting some cap rechargers in there will help you with the cap issues the Abaddon has. Same goes for CCCs in you rig slots instead of the tanking rigs. I love the repair rigs but I love CCCs even more on laser boats.

Quote:
* The Maelstrom's tank is IMMENSE: 954 DPS against Guristas. How would I go about shrinking the tank and upping the gank?


X-L boosters can't be sustained (or shouldn't anyway) so while the tank looks huge, you'll acutally be pulsing it when needed so you don't drain your cap dry in 30s.

Quote:
* The Megathron appears to have the best balance of Tank vs. Gank; 667 DPS against Guristas Tank, 441 DPS Gank. Does it see much use outside of missions, into Incursions?


I've used the mega a lot in missions, and it works well. I cannot tell you about use in incursions however, as I've never done any.

Any and all suggestions on any of the fits would be appreciated, as one of these will end up being my own.[/quote]


As for a ranking, for lower skilled pilots, I would go something like this:
1-Hyperion (easy to fit, massive tank, good gank, probably not the best for incursions though)
2-Apoc (ease of use because of range, lesser need for a tank due to range tanking, fair gank)
3-Megathron (Needs good fitting skills, tank is less than an hyperion slot for slot (obviously), gank is slightly better, damage application better)
4-Abaddon (Skill intensive because of cap and lack of range prior to T2 Pulse, great gank and tank, probably a fair chance to translate well into incursion with the resist bonus)
Can't rank Mael as I've never used one
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#3 - 2013-06-08 12:36:59 UTC
Illiar D'Anaari wrote:


There's a few important things to note about the fit you linked.
1- Pulse are great once you get T2 guns, because of scorch. Prior to that, they are sub par for missions, with the exception (kinda) of the apoc, due to its range bonus. For the Abaddon, I'd suggest beams until you can fit mega pulses II.
2- The TC you fit on it were probably to go around what I said just above, but this links to your cap problems. Fitting some cap rechargers in there will help you with the cap issues the Abaddon has. Same goes for CCCs in you rig slots instead of the tanking rigs. I love the repair rigs but I love CCCs even more on laser boats.



Thanks very much for the feedback! One thing, though; both the Abaddon and the Apoc fits are using Beams, since I knew the Pulses were somewhat sub-par until Scorch. I added the Tracking Computers in an effort to be able to stretch the optimal of Multifreq out to 45km (it's 46 with my skills), so as to apply the maximum damage at about the same range that ships seem to orbit.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4 - 2013-06-08 15:58:09 UTC
Question: Missiles are no option? CM's on a Raven are huge since the patch, and fit nice to most of your points..
mama guru
Yazatas.
#5 - 2013-06-08 16:56:34 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Question: Missiles are no option? CM's on a Raven are huge since the patch, and fit nice to most of your points..


This.


Best part is that you don't need to waste time training "medium" or "small" missiles to Tech 2 in order to get T2 cruise. Unlike turrets where you need small and medium artillary to get large ones.

EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
I Accidentally YourShip
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-06-08 18:16:52 UTC
mama guru wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Question: Missiles are no option? CM's on a Raven are huge since the patch, and fit nice to most of your points..


This.


Best part is that you don't need to waste time training "medium" or "small" missiles to Tech 2 in order to get T2 cruise. Unlike turrets where you need small and medium artillary to get large ones.


However missiles ARE more limited in applications outside of missioning so training for the long term, missiles are not the best idea unless all you ever want to do is L4s in your CNR and a very small number of niche situations outside of that.

If you want to go the incursion route, I recommend lasers and therefore apoc to eventually get into a Nightmare, otherwise pick whatever it doesn't matter. A droneboat would be nice, droneboats (sentry) are beast now because of the relatively new drone damage mods. Dominix is a nice start point until you can get into something like a rattlesnake but even if you just want to stick to something like a Navy Domi you will be pretty solid. The additional benefit of drones doing pure types of damage and all damage types of sentries being fairly useful unlike lights cannot be overstated.

Either that or go the autocannon route and use a Machariel, still good even with the TE nerf though projection definitely suffered, I would go so far as to say AB machariels for missioning are not that good anymore, MWD or bust.
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#7 - 2013-06-08 19:53:55 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Question: Missiles are no option? CM's on a Raven are huge since the patch, and fit nice to most of your points..


Missiles were something that was being considered, but are currently on hold due to where my SPs have been spent; I'm very much a gunnery toon right now, and once I've got a steady stream of ISK coming in, missile boats will be investigated.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#8 - 2013-06-09 03:17:59 UTC
where do you run missions? Imo that is probably the biggest difference. what does the best dps vs the Rats you fight most often?

1) Ease of use
I can't really see a big difference in the ships you listed. Maelstrom is probably my least favorite though, all tank not enough gank although the mach is a huge upgrade.
2) Speed of mission completion
again probably not a huge difference, the biggest difference will come from what you are fighting.
3) Ease of Upgrade
all pretty easy to upgrade, just buy some shiny stuff! and all pretty good ships to upgrade to with more sp and/or isk.
minny -> mach
gal -? kronos/vindicator
amarr -> Paladin or Nightmare
4) Ability to transfer into Incursions
pretty much the same as upgrades.
5) Cost (since these should be lower skilled)
Don't all t1 battleships cost about the same now? going to want 3-4 faction damage mods on all of the above

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#9 - 2013-06-09 03:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sanadras Riahn
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
where do you run missions? Imo that is probably the biggest difference. what does the best dps vs the Rats you fight most often?

1) Ease of use
I can't really see a big difference in the ships you listed. Maelstrom is probably my least favorite though, all tank not enough gank although the mach is a huge upgrade.
2) Speed of mission completion
again probably not a huge difference, the biggest difference will come from what you are fighting.
3) Ease of Upgrade
all pretty easy to upgrade, just buy some shiny stuff! and all pretty good ships to upgrade to with more sp and/or isk.
minny -> mach
gal -? kronos/vindicator
amarr -> Paladin or Nightmare
4) Ability to transfer into Incursions
pretty much the same as upgrades.
5) Cost (since these should be lower skilled)
Don't all t1 battleships cost about the same now? going to want 3-4 faction damage mods on all of the above


Thanks for this. Like the analysis. As to where I'm running missions, I've got Level 4 agents available for the Ammatar, Minmatar, and Gallente, and I can't imagine it would really take very long to get through to the Amarr and Caldari, should I need to.

As far as number 5, the T1 battleships still have a slight disparity between them; when looking at the Hyperion and Megathron, the Hype was still sitting at about 80mil more for the hull. I imagine these will start to level out as the expansion ages.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#10 - 2013-06-09 05:06:12 UTC
yea that is what I meant, I logged my jita alt in and looked and there is still a bit of a difference. although Just looking at the bpos with no research and doing some rough mental math it looks like the hype will still cost more than the domi/mega, but I don't think it will be a huge factor.

in ammatar/amarr space probably stick with an amarr boat, I had a lot of success with an apoc/abaddon, and eventually a nightmare.

caldari space, is a bit odd, I find the amarr boats to be surprisingly good, as gurista missions are far less frequent than expected. and the ones offered are either blitzable or mostly smaller ships where the resists don't matter a whole lot. maybe a gallente hull would be best, if you do want to kill everything in gurista missions instead? When I only had one mission ship I used a raven, I've had multiple ships available to me for so long I forget what it is like to only have one ship.

gallente space the mega/hype would probably be best, I only ever briefly ran in gal space. a good deal of serpentis missions.

minny space mael is probably best. I hear there are a bunch of angel missions, so you could probably fit autocannons for some missions, but I've yet to run lv4s in minny space.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#11 - 2013-06-09 08:14:48 UTC
Every ship you fly is going to require skilling into, missiles or not. "Gank tank" doesn't really start to kick in till 700-800 DPS and isn't that great till about 1000. You want to have just enough tank to rep the sustained DPS for each specific mission and the rest of your slots dedicated to DPS or utility aiding DPS.

Overtanking is something you want to avoid for missions towards the end of your skill plan, but is OK in the beginning. DPS is a good thing to have, however making your tank too thin for 25 DPS is a bad idea. If it (a module) doesn't decrease the amount of volleys required to finish a mission use it for tank in the beginning. As you get more DPS and more accuracy (and explosion radius etc for missiles) you can loose slots from your tank and add to your DPS.

You wont need to be anywhere near cap stable at the end of your skill plan. Towards the beginning you will need the cap a lot more.

The Maelstrom is good for missions and you can get into Incursions with it and move up to a Machariel. To lose some of the tank drop a kinetic and add a web. I would drop one gyro and add a second tracking enhancer. Use the web to help your drones kill frigs and cruisers.

Yes, I have seen Megas in Incursion but be prepared to get ripped on on voice comms till you get a Vindicator. I don't know about armor fleets.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
ExcalibursTemplar
CANZUK
#12 - 2013-06-09 13:37:19 UTC
You could try this but you would have to be very careful using it.

[Raven,]

6x Cruise Missile Launcher II (Inferno Fury Cruise Missile)
Large Plasma Smartbomb II

Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
2x Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
2x Large Shield Extender II
X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster (Cap Booster 400)

Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
3x Ballistic Control System II

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
Large Bay Loading Accelerator I
Large Core Defense Field Extender I

5x Hobgoblin II
5x Hammerhead II

72.12 lowest resist 101k EHP

953.45 DPS, Missiles + 158.4 DPS, drones + 50 DPS, Smart bomb = 1151.85 DPS Volley damage 6681.23

Just get your missile support skills trained up and only mission in quiet systems well away from mission hubs and trade hubs. Also stay the hell away from accelerator gates and warp beacons if you have to use the smartbomb.
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-06-09 13:45:34 UTC  |  Edited by: imbaRabbit
ExcalibursTemplar wrote:
You could try this but you would have to be very careful using it.

[Raven,]


I like that someone has given a Raven a try, but please don't advise people to use Smart bombs : )! Especially not in HIGH-sec. Although you've written out the warning for few things, I would like to warn any player that they should avoid using smart bombs in HIGH-sec.

Also your Raven tanks a lot of unneeded things? People are over-tanking ships. There's no need that you OMNI-tank yourself unless you're visiting Dread Pirate Scarlet, or sleepers in the wormhole? Maybe few of the Target painters could help you out against cruisers?

EDIT: There's so much things you can do with a Raven. Fit a sensor booster and take the micro jump drive (MJD). Go on a distance and snipe down the NPCs (the tank is not required!). There's no scram from NPCs (just a warp disruptor) which means that your MJD will work. Play around! Experiment. Don't be a slave to some fitting website or similar.

If you need help, while you're testing out, try to get someone to 'mentor' you. Not every mission is made for specific fit, and that's why you have to see what works the best for you.
ExcalibursTemplar
CANZUK
#14 - 2013-06-09 14:49:51 UTC
imbaRabbit wrote:
ExcalibursTemplar wrote:
You could try this but you would have to be very careful using it.

[Raven,]


I like that someone has given a Raven a try, but please don't advise people to use Smart bombs : )! Especially not in HIGH-sec. Although you've written out the warning for few things, I would like to warn any player that they should avoid using smart bombs in HIGH-sec.

Also your Raven tanks a lot of unneeded things? People are over-tanking ships. There's no need that you OMNI-tank yourself unless you're visiting Dread Pirate Scarlet, or sleepers in the wormhole? Maybe few of the Target painters could help you out against cruisers?

EDIT: There's so much things you can do with a Raven. Fit a sensor booster and take the micro jump drive (MJD). Go on a distance and snipe down the NPCs (the tank is not required!). There's no scram from NPCs (just a warp disruptor) which means that your MJD will work. Play around! Experiment. Don't be a slave to some fitting website or similar.

If you need help, while you're testing out, try to get someone to 'mentor' you. Not every mission is made for specific fit, and that's why you have to see what works the best for you.


The smart bomb is just in case of emergency and should only be used when well away from anything else and being swarmed by npc frigs. In nearly all L4 missions precision cruise missile with T2 lights with good support skills (missiles/drones) should butcher the frigs. The frigs are after all the most dangerous thing in an L4 as they're the only thing that can stop you from warping out in an emergency.

AS for the omni tank well that aids in blitzing, i can dock up hand in the mission grab the next one and be on my way in around ten seconds. It also comes in handy against Angel npc as they deal omni damage. Admittedly its mainly explosive and kinetic damage but still it does help omni tanking against them IMO. Then you have missions like the dread pirate which you've already mentioned.
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-06-09 14:51:51 UTC
I'd just say one more thing : take care of the people who scan battleships for the smart bombs :D. I've been doing that in my Manticore, just for the laugh of it : )!
ExcalibursTemplar
CANZUK
#16 - 2013-06-09 15:04:04 UTC
imbaRabbit wrote:
I'd just say one more thing : take care of the people who scan battleships for the smart bombs :D. I've been doing that in my Manticore, just for the laugh of it : )!


So you scan ships while uncloaked then follow them around cloaked up and then do what exactly ?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#17 - 2013-06-09 15:10:41 UTC
A Raven with no TP's or webs? Buffer tank mixed with active? Hammerheads.

Yes, use that fit with a grain of salt as well of caution.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
ExcalibursTemplar
CANZUK
#18 - 2013-06-09 15:27:41 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
A Raven with no TP's or webs? Buffer tank mixed with active? Hammerheads.

Yes, use that fit with a grain of salt as well of caution.


Its a cruise fit Raven not a Torp fit Golem a web might be nice though but i find the limited range to be a bit meh. As for the Hammerhead remark if you've not noticed all the DPS is thermal based. That can easily be swapped out to kinetic/EM/Explosive depending on the rats you're facing.
imbaRabbit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-06-09 15:33:24 UTC
ExcalibursTemplar wrote:
imbaRabbit wrote:
I'd just say one more thing : take care of the people who scan battleships for the smart bombs :D. I've been doing that in my Manticore, just for the laugh of it : )!


So you scan ships while uncloaked then follow them around cloaked up and then do what exactly ?



Lurk around so he activates the smart bomb and he gets concorded and I get a kill right on him?
ExcalibursTemplar
CANZUK
#20 - 2013-06-09 15:45:35 UTC
imbaRabbit wrote:
ExcalibursTemplar wrote:
imbaRabbit wrote:
I'd just say one more thing : take care of the people who scan battleships for the smart bombs :D. I've been doing that in my Manticore, just for the laugh of it : )!


So you scan ships while uncloaked then follow them around cloaked up and then do what exactly ?



Lurk around so he activates the smart bomb and he gets concorded and I get a kill right on him?


Well if you want to do that good for you, i just hope the other guy is watching for probes in dscan and his overview Blink
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