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T3 rebalance: what has been proposed so far?
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Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#141 - 2013-06-07 06:08:59 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
1 - That T3 cruiser cost a poopload more than your crappy T2 HAC or whatever.

A Tengu fitted for fleet fights will cost about 400-500m, which isn't massively expensive when compared with the BSes they are going up against. If you want to fit blingy modules, that's your decision. It has nothing to do with the cost of the ship, I can put blingy modules on any ship and demand it should be more powerful due to cost.

Quote:
You also lose a skill level every time you die in one.

That's true, and I agree it adds up but what does it have to do with balance? How is that relevant to the way a Tengu performs in a fight? It doesn't affect other players at all and it's a pretty stupid mechanic. I think CCP should get rid of it when the T3s are rebalanced.

Quote:
Seriously, since when have T1 items ever been better than T2 items?

Not sure if serious.


You don't get to pick and choose which parts to argue with. Sure, a fleet fitted Tengu costs around 450-500M. How much does a fleet fitted HAC cost? And you can't compare them to battleships either - apples to oranges.

Losing skills with a loss IS a balance - it's one more reason besides the pricetag to make risk averse pubbies not fly them.

And yeah - I'm absolutely serious. I'm talking hulls, not modules. Besides a few rare, extremely isolated cases every T1 hull in the game is seriously outclassed by it's T2 variants. Saying "not sure if serious" doesn't make that any less true.

If you can't afford to fly one, get better at making ISK. It's not hard. If you're really too risk averse or your corp / alliance is to risk averse to handle losing some, well...... HTFU princess. Keep flying HAC's. I don't hear any complaining from people flying T1 frigates getting owned by assault frigates... it's the same thing, plus a few hundred million.
Baren
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2013-06-07 06:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Baren
Wander Prian wrote:
It's been said many times that after tiericide the power difference between tech1 and tech 2 will be smaller. You get a linear increase in power for a expotential increase in cost. That will apply for tech 3's as well.

It's also been said many times that T2 will be the strongest ship in their specialization. For example a curse will be a better neuting ship than a legion but the legion will be good at more things (not the best but good). For example the curse has low ehp sen the legion would have a better tank while still being a good neuter.


its going to be a sad day when that actually happens and a cerberus is a better Hac that a tengu and a Legion is being out dps'd by a Legion and out tanked by a sacrilige.

As I said before... modest gains for exponetial cost of sp and isk.. where is the insentive.. we might as well all be equalls and be able to share our sp like cell phone minutes.

but seriously, why the push to make everything equall....... if people trainned for 6 years. and paid 2 bil isk... why cant they have ships that are alot higher classed than others.

Eve is becoming a melting pot, everything will become equal, and similar. so that nobody has a big advantage.. Newbs will be in ships that cost a fraction of what others do, ships that require a fraction of the Sp and be able to get by just fine.

Let screw over the people who pay billions of isk and trainned for 10 years


Quote:
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
1 - That T3 cruiser cost a poopload more than your crappy T2 HAC or whatever.

A Tengu fitted for fleet fights will cost about 400-500m, which isn't massively expensive when compared with the BSes they are going up against. If you want to fit blingy modules, that's your decision. It has nothing to do with the cost of the ship, I can put blingy modules on any ship and demand it should be more powerful due to cost.


lol you kidding right.... are you really comparing a T3 to a BS..... you can get into a BS after just a couple months, a T3 requires alot more 1 year or more to fly well. Secondly everyone of those people who lost a T3 in a fleet lost sp. But thats besides the point.


anyways


good job CCP
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#143 - 2013-06-07 06:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Wander Prian
Ships that I mainly fly in PVP is Tech 3's. As a wormholer, that's the way we go. We got many T3's with expensive **** on them. Do I want to see my ships being nerfed? No, but I can see the thinking why tech 3's might need abit of fixing to make the other ships viable as well. Currently hacs are overshadowed by tech 3's, same with command ships.
The T2 ships are supposed to be specialized to a single role and suffer in other ways for that specialization. Tech 3 ships are supposed to be good at many things at the same time, not to be the best. A hac might have the best dps and mobility but a t3 would have good dps, good tank and good mobility.

Do I see a problem in having a cerb do more dmg than a tengu in a hac-role? No, because I know my tengu will outtank a cerb. Get in the cerb's face and melt the ******.


When tech 3 ships get rebalanced, I'm hoping that the nerfs won't be too bad, but I also hope that they can make all the subsystems viable, instead of the 5-8 per ship that are used now.

Wormholer for life.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#144 - 2013-06-07 06:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Ripblade Falconpunch wrote:
You don't get to pick and choose which parts to argue with.

I addressed all of your arguments.

Quote:
Sure, a fleet fitted Tengu costs around 450-500M. How much does a fleet fitted HAC cost? And you can't compare them to battleships either - apples to oranges.

Actually you're wrong. You can compare them to battleships because they are being used in fleets to combat battleships, that means there is a comparison right there in the fight. You can't compare them with HACs because people don't form HAC fleets to combat Tengu fleets, it doesn't happen because the Tengus would obviously win. There is no comparison there.

Quote:
Losing skills with a loss IS a balance

No it isn't. It's like saying your cat hates the Tengu model and scratches you every time you fly it, therefore it's balanced. It's a drawback to the pilot, but it has nothing to do with balance.

Quote:
I'm talking hulls, not modules. Besides a few rare, extremely isolated cases

Perhaps you should have made that more clear in your post. It would help your argument, though I still don't understand why T3 should be inherently stronger than T2 "just because". The only arguments I've heard so far in this thread are defensive complaints from players who don't want their precious Tengus to be nerfed again. These people seem to put their own selfish concerns ahead of the overall health of the game so I am somewhat dismissive of their arguments.

Quote:
If you can't afford to fly one, get better at making ISK. It's not hard. If you're really too risk averse or your corp / alliance is to risk averse to handle losing some, well...... HTFU princess. Keep flying HAC's. I don't hear any complaining from people flying T1 frigates getting owned by assault frigates... it's the same thing, plus a few hundred million.

This is completely unnecessary and irrelevant. Please focus on the argument of ship balance, not other players' wallets.

Oh god.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#145 - 2013-06-07 06:51:45 UTC
Baren wrote:
lol you kidding right.... are you really comparing a T3 to a BS

Yes, any reason why I shouldn't? Tengu fleets are used to combat BS fleets so the comparison is a valid one.

Quote:
you can get into a BS after just a couple months, a T3 requires alot more 1 year or more to fly well.

I can't agree with these figures and I can't see how they are relevant either.

Oh god.
Ron Maudieu
#146 - 2013-06-07 07:07:46 UTC
Baren wrote:


lol you kidding right.... are you really comparing a T3 to a BS..... you can get into a BS after just a couple months, a T3 requires alot more 1 year or more to fly well.



Ya.... not sure what you're smoking.
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#147 - 2013-06-07 11:26:03 UTC
The Difference between t1,t2 and t3 is going to get smaller. It's the whole point of tiericide. To make all ships viable. Tech 3 is supposed to be an allrounder, a jack of all trades but master of none. T2 will be the king of the hill on their specialization, but it will suffer in other areas. A t3 will be good at many things at the same time, but it won't be as effective in any of them as a specialized t2.

This makes the powercreep smaller and makes new ppl have more options. I don't see that as a bad thing. It's now gonna be more about the skills of the pilot than the thickness of their wallet that decides the fight.

Wormholer for life.
raz1980
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#148 - 2013-06-07 13:15:50 UTC
The way you people whine about nerf this nerf that... unbalanced this... overpowered that by the time you guys are finished we will all be flying frigates and then you guys will say nerffffff the frigates their to overpowered. ccp aren't killing this game its you so STFU
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#149 - 2013-06-07 13:41:51 UTC
Yeah okay. Sorry I hurt your feelings.

Oh god.
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#150 - 2013-06-07 15:12:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ripblade Falconpunch
Riot Girl wrote:
Yeah okay. Sorry I hurt your feelings.


I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree and all that.

But you're delusional if you think you're going to suddenly suck less or stop getting owned if T3's are nerfed. That's not a problem with the ship.

Edit: lol? (Link to a KM showing Riot Girl's corp losing a Loki to a big, scary, expensive Drake removed)
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#151 - 2013-06-07 15:19:56 UTC
What are you talking about?

Oh god.
Ripblade Falconpunch
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#152 - 2013-06-07 15:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Ripblade Falconpunch
Riot Girl wrote:
What are you talking about?


I'm laughing at this: (Link to KM showing Riot Girl's corp losing a Loki to a big, scary, expensive Drake removed)

Then I'm going to go ahead and unsub to this thread, because it's going nowhere. Poor and/or risk averse people can't handle flying / dealing with T3's so they scream nerfs. Learn how to bring the proper tools for the job, or just blueball them. Whining about a T3 fleet that curbstomped you when you knowingly engaged them without a proper counter is just stupid on your FC's part. And if your hard counter happens to be another T3 fleet, but you can't afford / can't handle seeing them on your KB losses well.... that's not really the ships fault either.

I really don't care if they nerf T3's tbh... I prefer interceptors (which actually DO need some serious love) and assault frigates. I'm just tired of seeing babies who can't hack it cry for nerfs instead of doing what they need to do in order to win.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#153 - 2013-06-07 15:44:32 UTC
Pretty sure you're not allowed to post killmails here, also I don't see what that killmail has to do with me or this thread. I think you're just grasping at straws now because you're upset. No one in this thread has suggested Tengu needs to be nerfed because they are upset about losing to a Tengu in PvP. The only people who have even mentioned it are those who are getting overly defensive because they fear change. They are the babies.

Oh god.