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Broteau to be extradited
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Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-06-04 06:36:33 UTC
Oh, I couldn't agree with you more, Ms. Luftschreck...

Bio and writing

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Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#62 - 2013-06-04 07:07:02 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
What will be really funny is when the press finds out that Maleatu Shakor ordered the invasion fleet. Will the Federation then demand that he be extradited for giving the orders that killed, what was it, ten thousand or so Federation Navy personelle?

It would be only fair, after all, and the precedent has just been set.


I think the biggest difference lies in the target.

Karin Midular was a Tribal Leader, which made her prominent in the government of the Minmatar Republic. The equivalence, I imagine, would be if a Minmatar were to shoot into a crowd of Gallente citizens visiting on Matar and killing President Roden.

That, and the particulars of our judicial system are different than that of the Federation. I'd say that it's good to see them trying to repair the alliance that was strained not long ago between the two empires.

I'm never going back to Gallente space unless required, mind you, but I do appreciate the gesture.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2013-06-04 14:35:42 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
What will be really funny is when the press finds out that Maleatu Shakor ordered the invasion fleet. Will the Federation then demand that he be extradited for giving the orders that killed, what was it, ten thousand or so Federation Navy personelle?

It would be only fair, after all, and the precedent has just been set.


I think the biggest difference lies in the target.

Karin Midular was a Tribal Leader, which made her prominent in the government of the Minmatar Republic. The equivalence, I imagine, would be if a Minmatar were to shoot into a crowd of Gallente citizens visiting on Matar and killing President Roden.

That, and the particulars of our judicial system are different than that of the Federation. I'd say that it's good to see them trying to repair the alliance that was strained not long ago between the two empires.

I'm never going back to Gallente space unless required, mind you, but I do appreciate the gesture.


Ahhhh, and here it is in all it's naked glory: The fundamental belief within the Republic that justifies invading an ally and killing tens of thousands. The Republic was justified in sending in that fleet and killing all those people because Midular had been killed on Federation soil, yet the Federation should not object to those tens of thousands of deaths because they were not as important as Karin Midular. It sounds suspiciously like the philosophies espoused by certain Amarr.

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Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#64 - 2013-06-04 21:01:01 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.


You misunderstand. This is *especially* why the Republic was humiliated.

You see your dog is hungry, but you ignore him when he begs for the scraps left on your plate and you whip him when he growls, even though you fully intend him to have the scraps and finally feed them to him when he lies whimpering in the corner.



This is how you get bit, hon. And in case you forgot, the Amarr got bit.


Are you equating the Minmatar with rabid dogs ?

I find it a bit extreme.
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#65 - 2013-06-04 21:24:33 UTC
Katarina Musana wrote:
Actually, it humiliates the Federation since if the Federation had been smart enough to say from the beginning that they would extradite after trial (rather than absolutely refuse extradition and insult our courts/judicial system), they'd have prevented any risk of an event like Colelie ever happening. Not that I expect the Federation to recognize this.

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.

1. Broteau was a Federation citizen and committed the crime in Federation territory. According to the Gallente judicial law, he should thus be prosecuted by the Federation. Would you like the Gallente Federation to break it's own law so the Republic can have its man? The Federation did not insult your judicial system. They could not extradite them without insulting their own.

2. The Colelie Incident was ugly and the aggression that started it was unwarranted. The Federation told the Republic that they were not going to extradite him at the moment. The Republic should have been patient with its own ally. It wouldn't even matter if they didn't extradite him at all, the blatant (you like that word, don't you? now watch as I actually use it in context) and demanding invasion of Federation territory in an attempt to take Broteau will always be a ugly stain on the already imperfect fabric of the Republic.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#66 - 2013-06-05 16:47:27 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Ahhhh, and here it is in all it's naked glory: The fundamental belief within the Republic that justifies invading an ally and killing tens of thousands. The Republic was justified in sending in that fleet and killing all those people because Midular had been killed on Federation soil, yet the Federation should not object to those tens of thousands of deaths because they were not as important as Karin Midular. It sounds suspiciously like the philosophies espoused by certain Amarr.


So... you missed everything about the comparison between a Tribal Leader and the President of the Federation, then?

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Anslo
Scope Works
#67 - 2013-06-05 16:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Ahhhh, and here it is in all it's naked glory: The fundamental belief within the Republic that justifies invading an ally and killing tens of thousands. The Republic was justified in sending in that fleet and killing all those people because Midular had been killed on Federation soil, yet the Federation should not object to those tens of thousands of deaths because they were not as important as Karin Midular. It sounds suspiciously like the philosophies espoused by certain Amarr.


So... you missed everything about the comparison between a Tribal Leader and the President of the Federation, then?


No I think what she's getting at is that the Fed wouldn't scream bloody murder and invade the Republic to get the shooter. They'd request information and updates or even a joint investigation (as WE should have done with the Republic, but no, the talking heads had to be stupid). Be that as it may, it still doesn't justify the Incident.

And Katarina where the flying **** do you get off saying 'well it wouldn't have happened if you obeyed us' to your own allies? Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you? And where's your evidence to back the claim that the Fed PURPOSEFULLY antagonized its ally instead of, ya know, trying to do things their way, by their laws, in their space? So because they didn't yield to Republic demands they deserved to have a few thousand people killed? Arrogance deserves DEATH? Are you serious right now?

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2013-06-05 20:00:29 UTC
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Ahhhh, and here it is in all it's naked glory: The fundamental belief within the Republic that justifies invading an ally and killing tens of thousands. The Republic was justified in sending in that fleet and killing all those people because Midular had been killed on Federation soil, yet the Federation should not object to those tens of thousands of deaths because they were not as important as Karin Midular. It sounds suspiciously like the philosophies espoused by certain Amarr.


So... you missed everything about the comparison between a Tribal Leader and the President of the Federation, then?


Nah, I think you missed everything about the comparison between a Tribal Leader and a few tens of thousands of your supposed allies. Anyways, you should be ecstatic. The Republic gets Broteau, and Roden is evidently still interested in keeping the peace despite Shakor doing everything he can to demolish it. I tell you, if it were up to me the Republic would be sitting there wondering what happened to its only ally.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-06-06 02:57:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

Nah, I think you missed everything about the comparison between a Tribal Leader and a few tens of thousands of your supposed allies. Anyways, you should be ecstatic. The Republic gets Broteau, and Roden is evidently still interested in keeping the peace despite Shakor doing everything he can to demolish it. I tell you, if it were up to me the Republic would be sitting there wondering what happened to its only ally.


It'll never be up to you.

As long as Federation and Republic interests converge, there will always be an alliance.

Crocodile tears of State loyalists notwithstanding.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-06-06 04:42:59 UTC
Apologies for not responding to everyone in due time.

Nick Bete wrote:
Sure Fred. As soon as we pay money to all the families of those killed when Noir plowed his Nyx into that station or to all those killed during the battles for Caldari Prime.


First of all, Noir committed treason with that action. We can't be held directly accountable because he acted for himself. Despite this, we did offer a considerable amount of aid, but Heth and his rising Provist regime shot it down rather quickly.

As for Caldari Prime, government and independent charities across the Federation have been donating funds for Caldari Prime since the battle ended

Katarina Musana wrote:



Actually, it humiliates the Federation since if the Federation had been smart enough to say from the beginning that they would extradite after trial (rather than absolutely refuse extradition and insult our courts/judicial system), they'd have prevented any risk of an event like Colelie ever happening. Not that I expect the Federation to recognize this.

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.


I'm sorry, but you couldn't be further off.

The Republic tried TWICE to seize Broteau by force and failed. Once at the hands of our mighty navy. Both failures have made The Republic look like a nation gone rouge.

We didn't say we would have given him to you after the trial, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't have. Secondly, we didn't insult your courts or judicial system. That end of the debate has been addressed by several people including myself many times. If a mere "No" is considered an insult, then the Republic Government really do think like children.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2013-06-06 14:32:43 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

Nah, I think you missed everything about the comparison between a Tribal Leader and a few tens of thousands of your supposed allies. Anyways, you should be ecstatic. The Republic gets Broteau, and Roden is evidently still interested in keeping the peace despite Shakor doing everything he can to demolish it. I tell you, if it were up to me the Republic would be sitting there wondering what happened to its only ally.


It'll never be up to you.

As long as Federation and Republic interests converge, there will always be an alliance.

Crocodile tears of State loyalists notwithstanding.


See, this is the part about democracies that you don't really seem to understand. As a citizen of the Federation, I get a vote. So it really is up to me - and the rest of the voting population in the Federation. My occupation in the more... erm... mercenary professions notwithstanding. And in my view, the Republic's attack on the Federation explicitly means that the Federation and the Republic's interests do not converge.

But I suppose I shouldn't expect you to understand that.

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Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#72 - 2013-06-06 15:23:38 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


See, this is the part about democracies that you don't really seem to understand. As a citizen of the Federation, I get a vote. So it really is up to me - and the rest of the voting population in the Federation. My occupation in the more... erm... mercenary professions notwithstanding. And in my view, the Republic's attack on the Federation explicitly means that the Federation and the Republic's interests do not converge.

But I suppose I shouldn't expect you to understand that.



I like democracy. I don't see why someone should be deprived of their franchise just because they make their living by waging war on the nation that guarantees it, because why the hell not, everyone commits treason now and then. Especially terrible, terrible space people like us.

But I'm not sure how big the voting bloc is that gets outraged about attacks on the Federation Navy... while planning and executing attacks on the Federation Navy.

That a Republic fleet attacked us is a scandal. That a soldier for the Caldari is lecturing us about how outraged we should be... now that's comedy.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2013-06-06 18:15:57 UTC
What can I say? I'm an equal-opportunity mercenary, I'll fly for pretty much whoever pays me.

In reality, though, I haven't flown in the Gallente-Caldari war zone in years. I'm mainly in this at the moment because it affords me the opportunity to shoot at the Republic Militia. The paycheck is just a fringe benefit.

But I'm glad that someone at least appreciates the irony of the situation.

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(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Felsusguy
Panopticon Engineering
#74 - 2013-06-06 19:31:50 UTC
Extraditing him was a poor political choice. However, I'll still relish in the fact that Broteau will die a very bitter, angry man, thinking the Federation betrayed him and itself and that he would be executed or imprisoned by the Matari, the very same people he sought to repulse and kill.

It may not be justice, but it was justified, because Broteau is a malevolent man and a traitor to the Federation.

The Caldari put business before pleasure. The Gallente put business in pleasure.
Cipher7
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-06-07 06:41:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher7
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

See, this is the part about democracies that you don't really seem to understand. As a citizen of the Federation, I get a vote. So it really is up to me - and the rest of the voting population in the Federation. My occupation in the more... erm... mercenary professions notwithstanding. And in my view, the Republic's attack on the Federation explicitly means that the Federation and the Republic's interests do not converge.

But I suppose I shouldn't expect you to understand that.


So let me get this straight.

Republic kills Gallente citizens, that's bad.

You kill Gallente citizens, that's business.

Also you mention taking human life as a "fringe benefit" while bemoaning the taking of other human life as a "tragedy."

Have fun casting your vote (if they accept your vote I dunno) but your moral outrage is a joke.

The views you hold become meaningless when you contradict them.
Laurienne 'Quafegirl' Cherbourg
Like Oh My Gosh I Totally Have A Corp Now
#76 - 2013-06-07 08:46:59 UTC
I think this whole thing would've gone way better for everyone if they just let Quafe Company handle the negotiations.

Quafe!

The Gallente Federation's greatest ambassador!

Chilled Quafe™, accept no refreshment substitute. For all of you affluent Capsuleer-types, Quafe Elite™ restaraunts can be found at many stations! Only got a few minutes to spare before that fleet-op? Swing by QuafeSnacks™ for the full taste-experience you've come to expect from Quafe, on the go!
Philadunc Arsten
Jade Wolf Pack
#77 - 2013-06-07 12:17:50 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Apologies for not responding to everyone in due time.

Nick Bete wrote:
Sure Fred. As soon as we pay money to all the families of those killed when Noir plowed his Nyx into that station or to all those killed during the battles for Caldari Prime.


First of all, Noir committed treason with that action. We can't be held directly accountable because he acted for himself. Despite this, we did offer a considerable amount of aid, but Heth and his rising Provist regime shot it down rather quickly.

As for Caldari Prime, government and independent charities across the Federation have been donating funds for Caldari Prime since the battle ended

Katarina Musana wrote:



Actually, it humiliates the Federation since if the Federation had been smart enough to say from the beginning that they would extradite after trial (rather than absolutely refuse extradition and insult our courts/judicial system), they'd have prevented any risk of an event like Colelie ever happening. Not that I expect the Federation to recognize this.

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.


I'm sorry, but you couldn't be further off.

The Republic tried TWICE to seize Broteau by force and failed. Once at the hands of our mighty navy. Both failures have made The Republic look like a nation gone rouge.

We didn't say we would have given him to you after the trial, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't have. Secondly, we didn't insult your courts or judicial system. That end of the debate has been addressed by several people including myself many times. If a mere "No" is considered an insult, then the Republic Government really do think like children.


Fred, I know of Colelie, being one example of the Republlic trying to get Broteau, into its own hands, what's the other one?

Sure we 'demanded' extradition, but that's newsie-speak for 'asking outside proper channels'. Something that almost never works, anyways.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-06-07 15:13:54 UTC
Cipher7 wrote:
(Some stuff, mainly strawman arguments to discredit me)


Read up a bit. For the record, I'm killing Republic citizens, not Federation citizens.

In any case, I still don't think you understand the distinction. I don't know why I keep trying to get you to understand, probably boredom. It's really very simple, though:

I engage in CONCORD-authorized warfare on behalf of corporations in exchange for money. This is all perfectly legal, and goes through the proper channels. I do not hide the fact that my aim is to shoot at my targets - CONCORD legislates that I am prominently marked out as "hostile" in their overviews.

The Republic moved a fleet into Federation territory and opened fire on the Federation, an ally. This was done in violation of CONCORD law. No declaration of war was made on behalf of the Republic against the Federation - this was a sneak attack, a "blue on blue", if you would. The equivalent of your room-mate deciding that you've done them wrong and shooting you.

Surely you can understand the difference.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#79 - 2013-06-07 15:17:16 UTC
Philadunc Arsten wrote:

Fred, I know of Colelie, being one example of the Republlic trying to get Broteau, into its own hands, what's the other one?


The first time the Republic Fleet barged into Federation space without authorization, CONCORD showed up and told them to **** right off - which, thankfully, they did.

The portion of the Navy stationed in the Algintal constellation was not so lucky to have CONCORD's timely intervention the second time the Republic came knocking.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#80 - 2013-06-07 15:19:13 UTC
The first Republic incursion was an attempt to bring Midular back to a Republic hospital, wasn't it? I think that might be why Arsten says there was only one attempt to get Broteau.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)