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Details and update on the Ice Anomaly design

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Author
marVLs
#341 - 2013-06-05 15:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
CCP Fozzie wrote:
The highsec Amarrian systems that had multiple belts all have one version of the anoms, all other systems that had multiple belts have multiple anoms. (And a few highsec systems actually have more anoms than they had belts, as part of the balancing between volumes of racial ice available in highsec).

Sorry, I've realized I wasn't clear about that when I was discussing the changes to Amarrian highsec ice.


Thx for reply, but that really sux for me Ugh
Before Odyssey launch with Ice changes being announced i get a plan to move into some multiple Ice Belts system without station so there will be less competition. I farm lvl4 for standing to Khanid, then deploy POS in Talidal, moving all sorts of structures, items, accounts etc. and now...?
All for nothing, it's really sad that those Amarr multiple belt system changes wasn't properly announced...
Red DragonZA
Diplomatic-Incident
#342 - 2013-06-05 23:59:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Red DragonZA
Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT....

The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga. Shocked

Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer. What?Sad

PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!!
Hustomte
The Scope
#343 - 2013-06-06 00:44:07 UTC
Red DragonZA wrote:
Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT....

The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga. Shocked

Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer. What?Sad

PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!!


I have only 1 account and I support 3 pos towers - what are you doing wrong?
Do you not have any corpmates to help with the ice mining or something? We have ice to last through December at this rate.

Eve solo is always a bad idea my friend.

...Signature...

Red DragonZA
Diplomatic-Incident
#344 - 2013-06-06 06:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Red DragonZA
Hustomte wrote:
Red DragonZA wrote:
Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT....

The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga. Shocked

Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer. What?Sad

PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!!


I have only 1 account and I support 3 pos towers - what are you doing wrong?
Do you not have any corpmates to help with the ice mining or something? We have ice to last through December at this rate.

Eve solo is always a bad idea my friend.


I choose to be alone... that is my prerogative. EVE is a sandbox game so I can play it anyway I want to. I was doing just fine before this change... you wait and see... even corps with loads of members is going to battle. But this is not the point.

I enjoy ice mining and now I can't Ice mine as there is no damn belt when I in game after a long hard day of real life work.

And when you have to pay 2 - 4 times the price for a T2 ship or module.... don't complain.
Dave Stark
#345 - 2013-06-06 07:34:32 UTC
Red DragonZA wrote:
I enjoy ice mining and now I can't Ice mine.


wrong.

you choose not to mine ice. there's more than 1 ice anomaly in the game.
marVLs
#346 - 2013-06-06 08:25:12 UTC
And one more thing, why there's only 1500 racial Ice on anomaly in system Talidal? Should be 2500...

Yep checked it few times on belt respawn
Dave Stark
#347 - 2013-06-06 10:52:37 UTC
marVLs wrote:
And one more thing, why there's only 1500 racial Ice on anomaly in system Talidal? Should be 2500...

Yep checked it few times on belt respawn


if that's true, i suggest you screenshot it and submit it with a bug report.
energypills
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2013-06-06 19:58:54 UTC  |  Edited by: energypills
CCP Fozzie wrote:


As mentioned before, these belts will appear in systems that currently have ice belts, and will re-spawn four hours after they are depleted.



I just trained up a toon so that I could mind ice. I spent lots of isk on his +5's so that I could get it trained up as soon as I could so that I could bring in about 4-5 loads of ice during my 2-3 hour window of game play each evening. The 4 our re-spawn is horrible. For me as a solo miner. I don't have the time or money to run 10 clients or more. Each one with a mining barge like several people do in the system I mine Ice in. Since CCP allows bot-mining like this these belts disappear within 30 min or less. I have waited on the un-dock with my mackinaw scanning for the re-spawn for the three hours I have to pay each night: realizing the best thing for me to do in that situation is to dock up.

It seems that CCP just assumes that anyone who is worth the time to pay any mind to is those who run a fleet of Mackinaws.

There are a lot of strange things that CCP does in many aspects from making changes that don't seem thought through. Some are clues that the company (despite the CEO's email indicating that the changes badly needed are coming) - doesn't really have a solid direction or if it does is not telling anyone anything. IE: Why am I able to walk around a coffee table in captains quarters? How is that fun? What is its purpose?

But anyway this is a flawed change to me. If it remains then what do I assume?

That CCP doesn't have any regard for solo miners? Only wants to make high sec mining corps to war dec? And if this is the case -- what about the NPS corp mining fleets run by single person that eats up the ice field in 30 min - they are immune it seems.

And, what about the new players? They will get discouraged as hell. I figured I'd fit up a hulk because the ONE time I got into the ice field I wasn't able to complete a single cycle on three targeted Clear Icicles. This second account I am using is to make money so I can fund a main PVP toon. What is the point of all the training I did for this ice miner char?

I think that there are several ways this can be fixed. But the patch changes for Ice mining have begun re-inventing the wheel again if you ask me.

And another thing while I'm on a bit of a tangent. Please put an un-dock button back where it used to be (keep the new on on the top right as well if you want). It is driving me crazy.

My game time is valuable, if I am going to pay CCP $15 a month to watch a ship shoot a laser at an icicle for hours at a time. I need to have something target during the time I allocate to playing the game.

-- if you ask me one solution would be to not allow bot mining. Increase the refining yield accordingly. Surely these people running 10 mining barge toons aren't go to micro manage each one.

-- Look at it: after these changes - all the bot miners own all the ice belts. It was problem before and now after the patch if they are trying to limit the amount of ice coming out of high sec.

Right now it seems like a mess no matter how you look at it, but less of a mess before the ice mining changes.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#349 - 2013-06-06 21:51:29 UTC
Hustomte wrote:
Red DragonZA wrote:
Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT....

The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga. Shocked

Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer. What?Sad

PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!!


I have only 1 account and I support 3 pos towers - what are you doing wrong?
Do you not have any corpmates to help with the ice mining or something? We have ice to last through December at this rate.

Eve solo is always a bad idea my friend.


Your statement is not exactly accurate as one miner would not be able to mine enough ice products on his/her own to fuel three POS towers. Well, not large ones anyway.

CCP Soundwaves vision to model the trade in ice products on the RL trade in oil and other hydrocarbons is indeed flawed. I suppose we should be glad that his initial idea to remove ice from high sec entirely was dropped.

I agree that it is probably not a good idea for one player to be running six to ten accounts all mining. I see it going on occasionally and it quite destructive. Whether there are that many of these types about idk.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .

Null Exchange
The Fifth Dimension
#350 - 2013-06-06 23:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Null Exchange
To all the solo miners and their whining... this is a MMO. It can be, but is not intended to be played solo. The best rewards are for those who cooperate with other players. Adapt or find something else to do.

Also - If your POS relied on you mining the fuel to keep it running, you were doing it wrong. All economic equations of the money making venture you were doing should have included the market cost of the fuel before deciding to start the activity. The extra money made by mining it yourself should have been seen as that, extra profit.
energypills
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#351 - 2013-06-07 14:54:09 UTC  |  Edited by: energypills
Null Exchange wrote:
To all the solo miners and their whining... this is a MMO. It can be, but is not intended to be played solo. The best rewards are for those who cooperate with other players. Adapt or find something else to do.

Also - If your POS relied on you mining the fuel to keep it running, you were doing it wrong. All economic equations of the money making venture you were doing should have included the market cost of the fuel before deciding to start the activity. The extra money made by mining it yourself should have been seen as that, extra profit.



Do you REALLY think that this game is NOT intended to be played solo just because it is MMO? MMO means Multi Player. That means there are multiple players - that does not mean a player isn't meant to played solo. Don't go making stuff up - you don't know what you are talking about. I am not whining but in actuality whining will get you pretty far in this world.
Red DragonZA
Diplomatic-Incident
#352 - 2013-06-07 15:52:57 UTC
energypills wrote:
Null Exchange wrote:
To all the solo miners and their whining... this is a MMO. It can be, but is not intended to be played solo. The best rewards are for those who cooperate with other players. Adapt or find something else to do.

Also - If your POS relied on you mining the fuel to keep it running, you were doing it wrong. All economic equations of the money making venture you were doing should have included the market cost of the fuel before deciding to start the activity. The extra money made by mining it yourself should have been seen as that, extra profit.



Do you REALLY think that this game is NOT intended to be played solo just because it is MMO? MMO means Multi Player. That means there are multiple players - that does not mean a player isn't meant to played solo. Don't go making stuff up - you don't know what you are talking about. I am not whining but in actuality whining will get you pretty far in this world.


My point exactly.

@ Goons.... I lived on nullsec for over a year. I prefer wormholes.... way much fun. hey CCP... please take away local in all nullsec systems and move moon materials to wormholes . The we will see how the nulsec crowd cries!
Dave Stark
#353 - 2013-06-07 16:17:59 UTC
i find it amusing people think that 1 account should be as effective as multiple accounts working together.
Marsan
#354 - 2013-06-07 16:46:15 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Soft Insanity wrote:
Fozzie, can we get ice miners on the Venture Pwwwwease?


I've wanted that for a while, but to do it right we'd need to allow faster cycling ice miners that create smaller blocks. And I have no idea how we would go about implementing that.


Why not change all ice so that all ice blocks are 1/10th the size of the current ones. Reduce Ice miner cycle to 1/10. Make all BPs require x10 the Ice. Finally split all the existing ice materials 1 for 10. Now you have the flexibility to ice mine in more active fashions in ships with smaller cargo holds.

The other option is to have an ice mining laser that produces free floating jet cans with ice in it instead of the block being transfered to your ore hold. Then you could have a horde of Ventures carving off blocks of Ice and an Orca or fleet of indys collecting them. This could lead to hijinks in HS as people try to ninja the ice and get suspect flagged. Make this laser cycle x1.5 faster to encourage fleet mining ops.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.

Null Exchange
The Fifth Dimension
#355 - 2013-06-09 16:54:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Null Exchange
Yes I do and I stand by my statement. However as I also said you can still play solo if you choose, just that the rewards are not as lucrative (nor should they be) than if you play with others. The main focus of the devs seems to be to encourage players into making their own content through player to player interaction via the framework they provide, and rightly so. This is what makes Eve the great game that it is and player generated content is far better than anything CCP can create on their own.

Ice was pretty much broken anyway really; it wasn't really in sync with the rest of the game mechanics IMO. Whilst it’s a very drastic change that will be hard to get used to, it was a shakeup that we all needed for the betterment of the game overall.
If Ice mining was your way of playing and enjoying Eve and it now prevents you from doing so, well yeah I accept this this change would be pretty annoying and crappy for you. However it’s a great big universe out there and perhaps you might see this as an opportunity to challenge yourself to explore the other offerings this great game has.

New and solo players if they choose to mine still have options to do so. Ore is much more abundant and had been worth more isk than ice per hour anyway. I haven’t done the numbers recently but they are most definitely not locked out of the profession and can do well in it if they choose to do so (well for mining standards anyway, remembering it’s probably the least lucrative but easiest profession to get into).

PS - I am a lone wolf non pvper in the sandbox like a number of others - I just like seeing things being kept fresh and challenging.
Arckaon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#356 - 2013-06-10 11:44:05 UTC
lot of people crying about : i can't harverst ice naymore please do something : well their is ton of ice with nobody inside just move your body somehere else and do something

@Wh well you know if goon was in WH i'm sure you will go outside it. you don't deserve more attention lolz
El 1974
Green Visstick High
#357 - 2013-06-11 13:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: El 1974
I recently learned that nullsec anomalies don't de- and respawn at downtime. Even worse these 'anomalies' don't seem to behave like typical anomalies that despawn after three days after being activated. I had a spreadsheet containing some numbers on pre-Odyssey production and consumption estimates and used it to gain an insight in the effects of Odyssey. With this new information I had to rework my post-Odyssey production model.
The result of the not despawning of the anomalies is that you can no longer cherrypick the ice you like from anomalies in 0.0; you have to mine them out completely to get more of the good ice. This also means that it is now possible to accurately predict what miners in different areas of space will mine.

My pre-Odyssey numbers looked like this:
Hisec racial ice contains 50 HW (13,3%), 300 isotopes (79,79%), 25 LO (6.65%), 1 stront (0,27%)
Estimated non-hisec ice production: 31-40% HW, 5% isotopes, 50-60% LO, 3% stront
Estimated universal production: 17-20% HW, 60-70% isotopes, 15-17% LO, 0,8% stront
This however resulted in not all HW and especially strontium in nullsec to be consumed and being stored in hangars indefinately.

Post-Odyssey we know how these ratio's are in different area's of space:
Hisec racial ice: 13,3% HW, 79,79% isotopes, 6.65% LO, 0,27% stront
Lowsec: 31,65% HW, 51,78% isotopes, 15,82% LO, 0,75% stront
Bad null: 31,38% HW, 35,62% Isotopes, 31,21% LO, 1,8% stront
Good null: 30,02% HW, 28,99% isotopes, 38,22% LO, 2,77% stront

My model indicates that HW will continue to be overproduced. Strontium production will go down a bit, but not enough for it to be problematic. Isotopes and LO are more interesting.

When I use the estimate that hisec produces 80% of all ice and make estimates for production in other areas, I get a perfect balance between isotope and LO production. But if I change hisec production to 70% of all ice, that balance disappears. If non-hisec has to take over more hisec production (which contains mostly isotopes), that will result in all non-isotopes being overproduced.
It's interesting to note that the good nullsec ice anomalies contain a lower % of isotopes which in this scenario leads to a situation where they pay less isk/hr than the 'bad' ice anomalies.

So why could ice production/consumption be not exactly what CCP expects?
- they could miss-guess player behaviour (wouldn't be the first time)
- they could make changes that change player consumption (adding more moons that require posses to mine them, changes to ships and modules that could change use of capital ships, stimulate local production thus reducing the need for stuff to be jump-freightered in, ...)
- the number of players could change

Conclusions:
- removing the ability to cherrypick ice ores makes the model unstable; it depends entirely on CCP tweaking the numbers to keep the system balanced
- Good nullsec systems will not pay significantly more isk/hr than bad nullsec systems, probably less
PaladinKaos
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#358 - 2013-06-12 00:33:20 UTC
I'm not a big fan of this change, but it is what it is. I have spent a lot of time and effort to get my skills up for Ice harvesting its one of the ways I relax while playing eve and am able to make a decent living. The main reason I ice mine is because it is easier to walk away from for a min or two when I have to take care of my children (reason why I don't go nuts mission running.) So more than likely I will be doing a lot less ice mining. Oh well to bad.
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#359 - 2013-06-13 18:16:12 UTC
Red DragonZA wrote:
Two days into this and mostly Im like... I like the changes..... BUT....

The new ice mining system sucks for me. I work fulltime had 5 accounts, now 4 ..... I can't wait around Sigga all night for a ice belt to spawn. Ice mining was my anti-stress routine at night. I'm yet to smell an ice spawn in Sigga. Shocked

Im now forced to scale down my eve playing to 3 accounts thanks to this. I can't maintain two posses anymore so Im pulling down my Wormhole pos.... not happy.... I am a wormholer. What?Sad

PS.. I still go dizzy jumping gates... love it!!!



You know, I am much the same. Been away from the game for a while (Real Life's issues with a decreasining number of clanmates and all that) and decided to train up on Ice Mining.

Ended up, like yourself, in Sigga and wondered where the Ice had all gone. Again like yourself I'm a casual player and will be for the forseeable future and find the same problems as yourself.

Oh well, I will give it a go. Perhaps tomorrow or the day after.

Hwyl
Myfanwy

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?

Felicity Love
Doomheim
#360 - 2013-06-14 21:28:14 UTC
... waits for CCP to tweak ice anoms down yet another 20% to bolster crashing prices and incite the much expected "ICE WARS"... P

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )