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Broteau to be extradited
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Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#41 - 2013-06-02 13:42:49 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
No, the trial was not for show.

No, there is no special 'killing the Ray of Matar' crime. He was sentenced for killing a several dozen people, of which she was one.

Yes, the extradition is legal. Why wouldn't it be?
So why is there another trial? Since when do crimes have to be prosecuted twice?
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
Extradition legally speaking normally refers to when a crime is committed in one territory, then the perp flees to another territory and is caught and returned back to where the crime was done to be tried. Like with the Eturrer incident.

This is more like an extraordinary rendition. Which is legally questionable in my opinion. While it is tragic what was done, this is a violation of Broteau's rights as a Federation citizen and by extension a threat to everyone's rights.
This is my understanding of how these things work as well. Granted, I'm no legal expert, but so far I haven't heard anything that indicates this is legal.

That many people don't seem to see this as a problem or even a matter that is worth discussing bothers me more than the extradition itself.

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Ollie Rundle
#42 - 2013-06-02 14:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ollie Rundle
Che Biko wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
This is more like an extraordinary rendition. Which is legally questionable in my opinion.
This is my understanding of how these things work as well. Granted, I'm no legal expert, but so far I haven't heard anything that indicates this is legal.

That many people don't seem to see this as a problem or even a matter that is worth discussing bothers me more than the extradition itself.

Extradition is the transfer of a suspect or criminal between sovereign jurisdictions based on treaty agreements alone.

When extradition is compelled by law it is known more generally by the term rendition and is, by its nature, legal.

Extra-ordinary rendition is the acquisition and extra-judicial transfer of an individual from one sovereign state to another.

Admittedly it's not entirely clear from the press release alone whether either the Caille District Court or any higher judicial authority signed off on Broteau's transfer to Republic jurisdiction. However, given the overexposed nature of the trial I find it hard to believe that something so under the microscope of public scrutiny would be anything but 'by the book'.
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2013-06-02 14:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
Che Biko wrote:

This is my understanding of how these things work as well. Granted, I'm no legal expert, but so far I haven't heard anything that indicates this is legal.


Perhaps some legal experts on Gallente law can shed light on this issue. I am too unfamiliar with the system myself. For example, I find it highly odd that a legal system can sentence someone to 20-something life sentences. One should be more than enough for anyone.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#44 - 2013-06-03 10:16:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Che Biko wrote:
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
No, the trial was not for show.

No, there is no special 'killing the Ray of Matar' crime. He was sentenced for killing a several dozen people, of which she was one.

Yes, the extradition is legal. Why wouldn't it be?
So why is there another trial? Since when do crimes have to be prosecuted twice?


I doubt it is being prosecuted twice. The Ray of Matar was a foreign official. I do not know Federation law, but I would assume murder of foreign officials is a separate crime. Even if it isn't, the charges would each be counted as a separate crime, and so the 59th count--the Ray of Matar--could have been left off deliberately, leaving Broteau charged on 58 counts of murder rather than the full 59. The final charge would then be prosecuted in the Republic.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-06-03 14:24:22 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Che Biko wrote:

This is my understanding of how these things work as well. Granted, I'm no legal expert, but so far I haven't heard anything that indicates this is legal.


Perhaps some legal experts on Gallente law can shed light on this issue. I am too unfamiliar with the system myself. For example, I find it highly odd that a legal system can sentence someone to 20-something life sentences. One should be more than enough for anyone.


Typically it'll work like this: Bob the suspect is charged with 20 different crimes, and goes to court. He is found guilty of all 20 of those crimes, and so the sentence reflects that. If each of those crimes carries a life sentence, then he may be sentenced to 20 consecutive life sentences. It seems like overkill, but it plays into parole guidelines, as well.

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Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-06-03 14:37:33 UTC
How is a "life sentence" defined nowadays in the era of cloning technology?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Anslo
Scope Works
#47 - 2013-06-03 14:42:21 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
How is a "life sentence" defined nowadays in the era of cloning technology?


Depends on how serious the crime is and the extend of the cloning technology and implants and other fun stuff.

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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#48 - 2013-06-03 14:45:41 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Che Biko wrote:

This is my understanding of how these things work as well. Granted, I'm no legal expert, but so far I haven't heard anything that indicates this is legal.


Perhaps some legal experts on Gallente law can shed light on this issue. I am too unfamiliar with the system myself. For example, I find it highly odd that a legal system can sentence someone to 20-something life sentences. One should be more than enough for anyone.


Typically it'll work like this: Bob the suspect is charged with 20 different crimes, and goes to court. He is found guilty of all 20 of those crimes, and so the sentence reflects that. If each of those crimes carries a life sentence, then he may be sentenced to 20 consecutive life sentences. It seems like overkill, but it plays into parole guidelines, as well.


What Shin's said here regarding parole guidelines - but it's also worth noting that the term "life sentence" often refers to a concrete number of years set somewhere between ten and fifteen years longer than the "average" lifespan of a human.

These numbers often don't take into account cloning or other life-extending technology because of how expensive it is, so while someone would usually end up technically just serving one of these and dying of old age in prison, it's quite possible that they could be forced to properly serve out multiple consecutive life sentences should the government feel it worth the cost and effort.

Cloning technology throws a wrench into most things in general.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-06-03 14:50:32 UTC
Throw in life-extending cybernetics and it strikes me that if you're going to sentence somebody to that many years you may as well just commute the sentence to capital and have done with it.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#50 - 2013-06-03 15:08:21 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Throw in life-extending cybernetics and it strikes me that if you're going to sentence somebody to that many years you may as well just commute the sentence to capital and have done with it.


Not every government within the Federation allows for capital punishment, Verin. And even those that do, sometimes prefer not to create a martyr, which Broteau no doubt would become.

In this particular case, I think it would be counterproductive for that reason. It would be ideal, in my opinion, to just lock him away somewhere dark where he will be forgotten about.

Handing Broteau over to the Republic is, if you ask me, a move born more out of PR and hasty diplomacy, not sense or forethought to the desire to prevent further crimes like his. It pains me to say it, but I confess I don't have much faith that the Sebiestor Tribal Court will refrain from turning him into a martyr for his misguided, disgusting cause.

I'm hoping I will be surprised by whatever decision they make.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#51 - 2013-06-03 15:16:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
If it's the difference between death of natural causes (which may well be protracted, painful and undignified) in prison after many decades of being a net expense to the taxpayer versus a humane and swift end after an incarceration of sufficient length to reasonably ensure there has been no miscarriage of justice, then you're effectively sentencing a person to die either way. Which means you're effectively creating a martyr either way.

Lock him up or execute him, if he's going to inspire crazies he has already done so just by doing what he did, and has already been martyred for his cause just by being tried and found guilty in a court of law. Whether his sentence is to die in a hundred years or in five, makes little difference so far as I can see.

Crazies will crazy no matter what is done. The Federation may as well salvage as much good as they can and smooth those ruffled Republic feathers.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#52 - 2013-06-03 15:37:10 UTC
I'll clarify - I should have said it would make him more of a martyr to simply execute him.

As long as it does not lead to more incidents like this, I do not have any particular preference for how he is dealt with in the end. They could jam his head and spine full of implants, then throw him into a hydrostatic capsule without any training or preparation and see if he gets mindlocked, for all I care.

My concern is that executing him outright is the "how" that is most likely to lead to further incidents.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-06-03 15:47:22 UTC
Maybe I'm just being Caldari about this, but I don't really see why whether or not he becomes a martyr in the eyes of those who were probably already predisposed to agree with him should be a factor for concern.

The people who would most likely view him as a martyr and use his death as an excuse to act on their prejudices were probably already violent fringe elements anyway. If they're inclined to shoot up a crowd of people or whatever, does it really matter what their inspiration was? Broteau didn't have a martyr to inspire him and I'm not sure I see that providing one would make a big difference to the likelihood of copycat violence. In any case they'd more likely be inspired by the fact that he did it at all, and succeeded. I'm pretty sure Broteau did it in the full knowledge that he'd be caught, tried, and possibly executed. When you're dealing with that kind of reckless hatred, things like martyrdom aren't triggers, they're just excuses.

Take the course of action which results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people I say, and prosecute any who choose to follow his example if and when they do so. Deal with the job in front of you, you know?

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Seneca Aurun
Doomheim
#54 - 2013-06-03 16:59:10 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
And to all of you who are so quick to want to break ties with the Minmatar consider this: How well do you think we would fare attempting to hold off the Amarr/Caldari alliance by ourselves if it came down to that? I'd much prefer to have those passionate Matari warriors fighting with me rather than against me if they were ultimately defeated by the Amarr and added to their ranks.


And if that means that every once in a while a few thousand of your countrymen have to die because the Minmatar forget which side they're supposed to be shooting at, well, that's a sacrifice you're willing to make?

Though, as this act has clearly established that violence is the surest route to gaining Gallente cooperation, perhaps you should you should view conflict with the Empire and the State as merely friendly overtures on our part?
DutchGunner
Circle of Abyss
Wicked Angels.
#55 - 2013-06-03 18:36:33 UTC
I for one would certainly see to it that this man is extradited succesfully and does not receive the judgement from vigilante(s).

I would very much like to know when and where the extradition will take place so i can escort him to the Republic court.
Katarina Musana
Clan Leshya Offworld Venture Enterprise
#56 - 2013-06-03 18:53:37 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Katarina Musana wrote:

It doesn't humiliate us because there was no "You might get him after we conduct our trial" or any such indication, but merely a flat refusal of any extradition accompanied by blatant insults towards the quality of our court system.


You misunderstand. This is *especially* why the Republic was humiliated.

You see your dog is hungry, but you ignore him when he begs for the scraps left on your plate and you whip him when he growls, even though you fully intend him to have the scraps and finally feed them to him when he lies whimpering in the corner.



This is how you get bit, hon. And in case you forgot, the Amarr got bit.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2013-06-03 19:47:28 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
And to all of you who are so quick to want to break ties with the Minmatar consider this: How well do you think we would fare attempting to hold off the Amarr/Caldari alliance by ourselves if it came down to that? I'd much prefer to have those passionate Matari warriors fighting with me rather than against me if they were ultimately defeated by the Amarr and added to their ranks.


"My boyfriend beats me. I know it's wrong, but I'm so afraid of being alone..."

Nah, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#58 - 2013-06-03 20:25:23 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Throw in life-extending cybernetics and it strikes me that if you're going to sentence somebody to that many years you may as well just commute the sentence to capital and have done with it.


True, but once you have them in custody it's pretty simply to unplug them from their support network. Admiral Yanala proved that - if someone with that much power can be cut off from their "immortality" then I dare say anyone else can suffer the same fate as well.



Morwen Lagann wrote:
Not every government within the Federation allows for capital punishment, Verin. And even those that do, sometimes prefer not to create a martyr, which Broteau no doubt would become.


This is true, and so if the Federation government wants the guy dead but they don't have a death penalty then how do get around it, legally speaking? Simple - you hand him over people who love to apply the death penalty for, well, everything really. Plus all the diplo-bonus points everyone already mentioned.

I wouldn't be surprised if this sort of thing started to become an unofficfial standard procedure. And hey, if the Federation ever really want to put some more oomf into a convict's life sentence you can always send them to us. We're don't do the "rot in prison" routine - we always make sure to get back something of value out of criminals (read: labor).

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#59 - 2013-06-03 21:29:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Rodj Blake
An interesting precedent, as the Federation now seems to accept that when a Federation citizen commits a crime against a foreign national citizen of Federation soil, then subsequent justice falls under the jurisdiction of the victim's government.

I urge all Gallente citizens to consider this fact if they ever consider acting against Amarrian interests, and I urge the Amarrian government to press for the extradition of any Gallenteans who have committed crimes against the Empire.

Dolce et decorum est pro Imperium mori
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#60 - 2013-06-04 03:07:43 UTC
What will be really funny is when the press finds out that Maleatu Shakor ordered the invasion fleet. Will the Federation then demand that he be extradited for giving the orders that killed, what was it, ten thousand or so Federation Navy personelle?

It would be only fair, after all, and the precedent has just been set.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0