These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Contraband Antimatter
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#1 - 2011-11-05 13:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
The idea: Hybrid Antimatter charges should receive a massive buff to damage, but as a trade-off they should become contraband, and therefore banned from highsec.

This is a pretty radical idea, so let me explain my reasoning. Elsewhere on the forums, I've been arguing for a bigger buff to hybrid weapons than what has currently been put forward by CCP. One of the things I suggested was a massive buff to the base damage for Antimatter charges. This would have the effect of making blasters the deadly close-range weapons they're supposed to be, and make rails viable mid-range guns. Win.

in terms of gameplay, the case for such ammo existing is clear for lowsec and nullsec PVP (where the limitations of hybrids balance it out). Truly immense close-range blaster damage would be perfectly acceptable in lowsec and nullsec PVP, where range and mobility really matter, but in highsec such a buff would be overpowered.

Engagement ranges in highsec PVP (if that's what you want to call station games and suicide ganks) are almost always short-range. A massive buff to Antimatter would have the side effect of making life far too easy for station gamers, gate campers and suicide gankers, and all other weapons would become obsolete in highsec.

This is the catch-22 of balancing EVE gameplay. By correcting one imbalance, you create a new one.

As a means of mitigating this new imbalance, this buffed-up uber-Antimatter could be made contraband in high security space - where the realities of combat are different.

If you want a justification for this in lore, the empires could realise the harmful effects of weaponised Antimatter on the fabric of space, and fear a second Seylinn Incident... or something. There's plenty of reasons why Antimatter (which in terms of its description, is unique among hybrid charges) would be banned. But such a ban wouldn't stop the use of Antimatter by capsuleers in the lawless space of lowsec and nullsec.

To avoid being overly disadvantaged, hybrid users would obviously need an alternative ammo type that is more or less as effective as Antimatter is currently, that could still be used legally (or at least, not get you instantly stopped by customs) in highsec.

TL;DR:
- Hybrid Antimatter charges need a massive damage buff to make blasters melt face and rails viable at mid-range.
- That buff would be well-balanced for low and nullsec, but would massively imbalance highsec PVP, where everything is close-range.
- Therefore, make the new Antimatter contraband, and banned from highsec.

So, what do people think? Is this a good correction for a potential new imbalance from hybrid rebalancing efforts? Would this be an interesting new quirk for hybrid weapons? Would it be unfair for hybrids to be the only kind of weapon with contraband ammo?
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#2 - 2011-11-05 13:12:33 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Would it be unfair for hybrids to be the only kind of weapon with contraband ammo?

Yes
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#3 - 2011-11-05 13:17:37 UTC
FluffyDice wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Would it be unfair for hybrids to be the only kind of weapon with contraband ammo?

Yes


Is that your only objection?

What existing or theoretical ammo types for other weapon systems need to be banned from highsec (and only highsec), and why?
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
#4 - 2011-11-05 13:29:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Frayn
What an amusingly stupid idea: Buff Gallente for losec and nullsec only, nerf them (best damage type would be plutonium or t2, right?) in highsec where pvp is least relevant. And please don't even try to convince anyone that Caldari are an option with hybrids. Their bonuses will always be inferior, no matter how good the guns are. Gallente > Caldari with railguns in all circumstances.

It takes a real moron to think that uber antimatter in 0.0 warfare wouldn't unbalance anything. Who would want to fly Amarr or Minmatar when you could **** face all day in your Hyperion with antimatter?

Here's a better idea: make T3 uber weapons with T3 ammo for each race and make THAT contraband in highsec. Invent whatever excuse you like for their illegality (since you seem to think antimatter is crazy dangerous when nuclear weapons are plenty destructive in eve anyway).
Camios
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2011-11-05 13:30:41 UTC
The idea of making some kind of weapon illegal in highsec is nice if it is a slight highsec nerf(*), it is not nice if it makes highsec safer. Making high damage wapons illegal actually does that.

(*) I would not like to nerf highsec, I'd rather buff lowsec and the nullsec wastelands, but you can't do that without causing inflation or making some things too easy to achieve. So, it's highsec that needs a nerf.
Killstealing
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-11-05 13:34:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Killstealing
Why would they center a rebalance around a small part of eve (highsec)? What you are saying is basically a humongous buff to hybrids except for people in high sec. AKA incursion and mission runners.

ALSO blasters need no damage buff, they need range and/or tracking and/or less mass on gallente ships. Rails might need damage sure but they already are getting 1.25x tracking short range ammo in the form of javelin.

So just get out.
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#7 - 2011-11-05 13:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: FluffyDice
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if there was a line of contraband ammo for every weapon system. But at the end of it all what exactly is the point besides adding more complexity. Hybrids just need a good balanced buff.

Also I think you would need to clarify more upon what you mean by contraband. As in like "illegal boosters that you can risk taking through customs gate camps" or as in "you cant fire bombs in high sec".

Quote:
Why would they center a rebalance around a small part of eve (highsec)?

Unfortunately high sec makes up the majority of the games subscription base. Therefore it isn't exactly a small part.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#8 - 2011-11-05 14:19:16 UTC
Seems like I made the mistake of assuming that the argument over whether hybrids need a buff or not is pretty much settled. Don't try to convince me that hybrids are anything other than broken at present, that station games and ganking is a big enough niche for a race, or that the currently proposed changes by CCP do enough to fix the problems.

For those that haven't been following the discussions about hybrid rebalancing, lets get some things straight:
- The only place where Gallente blaster boats currently excel is in highsec, for wardec station games and suicide ganking. It's the only place where the massive drawbacks of blasters are not an issue, and all that matters is raw DPS.
- In every other scenario, the extra damage you get from blasters is pretty meagre compared to pulse lasers and autocannons, when you consider how blasters have all their drawbacks (very short range, fixed damage, cap use, reload time) but none of their benefits.
- It is widely accepted that to make blasters a desirable option for PVP, they need to do a lot more damage at close range to make up for all their drawbacks, and the damage that they can't apply while the ship they're on is still closing range.
- Railguns are just too weak in normal ranges for them to be useful. They would be viable weapon systems again if they could do decent damage at ranges where fights actually take place in modern-day EVE.
- So blasters need to melt face up close (and you have to get up close) to make them worthwhile, and rails just need to be able to compete with other mid-range systems to make them worthwhile. Easy solution: buff Antimatter.

With me so far? Good.

The problem is, if you buff Antimatter, you have basically made the Megathron, Brutix and (possibly) the Talos so dominant at station games and suicide ganking in highsec, that no other ship would be worth using for those tasks. You certainly can't say that Gallente boats are underpowered when it comes to suicide ganks, so balancing hybrids for mobile combat in low and null makes Gallente unbalanced in stationary gankfests in highsec.

What would otherwise be a very elegant rebalance to Hybrids (buffing Antimatter damage to make hybrid platforms effective in low and nullsec combat, while maintaining the blaster niche and giving rails a useful role), needs a rather crude balance to make sure they doesn't become overpowered in another setting (contrabanding Antimatter so that it doesn't make Gallente overpowered in highsec, where everything is close-range).

It wouldn't necessarily be any kind of nerf: Hybrid ammo needs completely reworking anyway. It would be simple to have one of the other ammo types take the place of Antimatter as it is now, and remain legal in highsec.

So it's not a rebalance for highsec. It's a rebalance for hybrids which avoids making Gallente OP at the only thing they do well currently: station games and suicide ganking.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#9 - 2011-11-05 14:36:21 UTC
FluffyDice wrote:
I guess it wouldn't be so bad if there was a line of contraband ammo for every weapon system. But at the end of it all what exactly is the point besides adding more complexity. Hybrids just need a good balanced buff.

Also I think you would need to clarify more upon what you mean by contraband. As in like "illegal boosters that you can risk taking through customs gate camps" or as in "you cant fire bombs in high sec".


I have nothing against other weapons having contraband ammo. The difficulty is identifying a reason to make other ammunitions contraband. Adding high-damage contraband ammo for all other weapons would just result in hybrids being crap by comparison again. Banning existing ammo types from highsec (say, projectile EMP) would just make Gallente the kings of highsec by nerfing everyone else (which is what I'm trying to avoid).

I don't want to make highsec safer. I want it to stay about as dangerous as it is currently. Buffing Antimatter to fix hybrids would make highsec much more dangerous, which is why buffed Antimatter ought to be contraband.

When I say contraband, I mean in the way that boosters are contraband, not in the way that you simply can't use bombs or cynos in highsec.

When (if?) CCP gets round to implementing their ideas for overhauling the contraband system (with black market trading in establishments, player-run customs checkpoints, and flagging of smugglers), then contraband ammo types would make things very interesting. If you scan a battleship on a gate in Niarja and discover that it's loaded with contraband (high-damage) ammo, then you could stop the gankers before they strike.
FluffyDice
Kronos Research
#10 - 2011-11-05 14:41:17 UTC
I dont think antimatter being overpowered in high sec should really even come into it. High sec is becoming less and less of a PVP area anyway with the broken war dec mechanics. Hell if they stupidly buff concord like they seem to be heading towards suicide ganking wont even be relevant.
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
#11 - 2011-11-05 15:20:58 UTC
I very much enjoy the idea of contraband pirate ammunition that can only be employed in lowsec.

I don't think it should be just for blasters though. I think all weapons should receive crazy pirate ammo. Give us a laser crystal that inflicts the usual damage, plus 5 points of capacitor drain. Give us missiles that slow the target by 5% per hit. And yes, give us obscene unstable blaster rounds that do 2x damage.

This is a fun idea indeed.
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2011-11-05 16:48:10 UTC
Peter F. Hamilton fan spotted Lol

(In his Night's Dawn s-f space opera trilogy, antimatter is banned throughout the Confederation because of its destructive power.)
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#13 - 2011-11-05 16:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Peter F. Hamilton fan spotted Lol

(In his Night's Dawn s-f space opera trilogy, antimatter is banned throughout the Confederation because of its destructive power.)


I've never heard of him.

I'm approaching this from a concern for balance, not for lore.

If there are weird and exotic ammo types that could be created for the other weapon systems, that would also be contraband, then so much the better. The challenge is thinking of those unique ammo types, and how they would fit in to the existing array of weapons and charges.
Handsome Hussein
#14 - 2011-11-05 17:46:45 UTC
Let's think about this for a moment. Carrying antimatter on your ship is a serious liability: if containment fails in any way you're toast (and you're certainly not containing it with matter!). If you're firing antimatter at someone and it hits matter they should be instantly toast as well.

In a setting where we have the ability to sap power from enemy ships antimatter should never be taken seriously.

Leaves only the fresh scent of pine.
Evei Shard
Shard Industries
#15 - 2011-11-05 18:50:04 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Peter F. Hamilton fan spotted Lol

(In his Night's Dawn s-f space opera trilogy, antimatter is banned throughout the Confederation because of its destructive power.)


You have excellent taste in books. That was an awesome series.

Back on topic:

The idea of making anti-matter contraband is wonderful, however the backside of making it happen would create a bit of a headache for CCP.
There is already code in place which verifies the basic class of an item in a ships hold. Ammunition is held under the "charges" category.

The problem is that customs checks your cargohold for contraband, not the Ship Maintenance Bay.

And while CCP made the maintenance bay such that you can't carry things like drugs, which have their own class, in a ship that is docked in a maintenance bay, Charges are not on that list.

1. Fill Bestower with antimatter
2. Store Bestower in Orca maintenance bay
3. Jump to location of your choosing
4. Profit

CCP would need to do one of three things to prevent this, all of it requiring quite a bit of coding or causing potential lag issues.
1. Code the ship storing function to scan for a specific item within a specific charge group both in the cargo-hold and loaded onto turrets
2. Make the charges legal to transport, but make an anti-matter material that has to be used in order to create the charges (maybe stick it in high end WH space).
3. Revamp customs so that when you jump at a gate it scans *everything* (this may sound good at first, but those who make a bit of isk on drugs may disagree here).


Profit favors the prepared