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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#321 - 2013-05-30 21:52:04 UTC
Gigantic fleets are the best damn thing about this game

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#322 - 2013-05-30 22:04:33 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:



If you had to form that fleet, move the actual jumps in space to get there would it still be as easy as you say it is? Remember jumping system to system takes time.

That population only matters because it can be so easily moved around the map, Cynos, JB, JF, and titan bridges are the equivalent of mage portals on the game that will not be named.

You change how cynos and other forms of fast travel work and you add the SPACE back to eve, as well as more game play options.

If it takes 4 or 5 titans to just 2 fleets so what, you ether GET more titans or spend more time jumping the fleet, it also requires more cynos to be lit.

Its absurd, we have the ability to add more meaningful game play elements to the game besides BLOB, BIGGER BLOB, KING SIZED BLOB, SUPER BLOB.

But we cant have the because that would be a change, and you would have to change they way you do things, and you would not be as safe as you are now.

That's all it boils down to is it not?


The problem with you reasoning is that you're imagining an outcome you'd like to see then allowing yourself to beieve that it would just happen that way. Hell CCP can't even do that (go back and look at the fanfest video where CCP's CEO describes jetcan mining and how the people who made the came didn't even think of that...and they made the game).

If what you want to happen actually happens, Null sec FCs anf CEOs would encourage their players to train things like suicide/whelp cans and Torandos and the like and set them in low sec stations near null sec access points (or hell, even log them off in enemy space). As soon as intel says a convoy is moving, the ping would go out to "log on the nearest convoy whelp reaction force alt" and those convoys would be hit from all sides by so many different Alliances it wouldn't even be funny.

You don't HAVE to rely on jump bridging, eliminating or nerfing bridging will just encourage preposttioning of forces and/or intensifiy metagaming to the point where half of the convoy escort fleet will be goon spys waiting to awox (lol). If you don't think the thousands upon thousands of EVE players (each a creative human being) won't find ways to turn you idea to their advantage, you haven't been paying attention to EVE. That's why CCP has to fix exploits all the time, people won't do what WE expect, they'll do off the wall stuff no one sees coming.

That's why this is a thread about bad ideas. You CAN make positive changes in a complex environment filled with craft a-hole players, but you have to be very careful. CCP trying to give us "supply lines" to disrupt won't end up in cool pvp, it's end up in easily exploitable BS that CCP will have to waste time fixing while people like Malcanis "tsk, tsk" them on the forums forever.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#323 - 2013-05-30 22:15:56 UTC
In a day when even a moderately small alliance can field a full fleet of dreads why are we even discussing this? Any regular freight convoy would be massacred, and the dread pilots wouldn't even care about losing their ships because once you count cargo they would likely be destroying something 3-4 times the cost of their own vessel, more if they simply suicide fit it.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#324 - 2013-05-30 23:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaju Enki
Xavier Liche wrote:
Don't allow high sec jump landings, make them jump to low then run on normal engines through high sec



I would prefer if they just nerfed JF. You shouldn't be able to cyno near stations. That would solve some of the problems.

The Tears Must Flow
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#325 - 2013-05-30 23:08:35 UTC  |  Edited by: EI Digin
If you hate nullsec because of large power blocs and big blobs, you should be happy about things like jump freighters and fast travel which make life easier for smaller power blocs.

The minimum size for a nullsec power block shouldn't be enough players to fill a 200 man fleet a few times a week to protect their freighter runs, or to get a 50 man fleet together to reship after a loss.
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#326 - 2013-05-30 23:13:58 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


OK give me a number. What chance of losing a JF on a run to Jita "feels" right to you?



Is there a magic number for JUST RIGHT in dead titans? or fleets welped? or miners ganked?


Chance of getting CONCORDed for using Jump Technology in Empire Space:
JF I: 50%
JF II: 40%
JF III: 30%
JF IV: 20%
JF V: 10%

So JF drops in, gets whacked, 5 more ships get whacked due to loot issues Lol

It could be fun, has that guard whacked at WBB feel Twisted
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#327 - 2013-05-30 23:38:33 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
If you hate nullsec because of large power blocs and big blobs, you should be happy about things like jump freighters and fast travel which make life easier for smaller power blocs.

Stop trolling.
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#328 - 2013-05-30 23:43:28 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
If you hate nullsec because of large power blocs and big blobs, you should be happy about things like jump freighters and fast travel which make life easier for smaller power blocs.

Stop trolling.


+1 but additionally having random large cargo fleets passing through would be awesome, no we couldn't stop them, but they are not also going to risk stopping a cargo fleet to save the few non-freighters we pick off with targeted tackles Pirate

It would be like the migration of the water buffalo Idea
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#329 - 2013-05-30 23:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
SmilingVagrant wrote:
In a day when even a moderately small alliance can field a full fleet of dreads why are we even discussing this? Any regular freight convoy would be massacred, and the dread pilots wouldn't even care about losing their ships because once you count cargo they would likely be destroying something 3-4 times the cost of their own vessel, more if they simply suicide fit it.

You're supposing that all mechanics must remain the same. Dreads are anti-capitals and POS bashers not anti-convoy. Battleships, battle cruisers and smaller should be anti-convoy. That could easily be modified.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#330 - 2013-05-30 23:50:54 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
If you hate nullsec because of large power blocs and big blobs, you should be happy about things like jump freighters and fast travel which make life easier for smaller power blocs.

Stop trolling.

You're right, any freighter I fly is bait and will never require a large defense fleet to protect because of my alliance ticker.

Almost forgot.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#331 - 2013-05-30 23:58:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
When we had convoys a big fleet was something like 200 people. These days when a call goes out its not uncommon to find two or three full fleets of arty maelstroms. Its impossible to protect freighters against just one fleet of alpha ships let alone 3. Then there are bombing runs, alpha nado fleets ect.

Convoys cannot work with the population we have these days.


SmilingVagrant wrote:
Any regular freight convoy would be massacred,


Firstly, it would only be so long before you couldn't field fleets of suicide dreadnoughts and Maelstroms, since you would have to build stuff locally, which requires resources diverted away from your defense budget.

Secondly, not everybody is a carebear that thinks loading up a freighter with valuables and piloting it willy nilly through unsecured space is a great idea. There are ways to move a freighter more quickly and ways to keep it out of harms way. There are ways to increase the security of the space around you. There are ways to diminish the likelihood of a traitorous act. There are ways of mitigating the results of a traitorous act, and, most importanly, there are ways of dealing with traitors.

You are thinking of a line of Obelisks full of space gold with 10 Rifters escorting them, but the one "convoy" I ever laid eyes on was 1 freighter and at least 30 escorts, battleship and battlecruiser heavy, and probably with capitals on standby. The one freighter escort op I was on was through well-known blue space. There was 1 freighter and 9 scouts. If any of our scouts had contacted you, we would have interdicted you and the freighter would have logged off.

If the logistics team that puts together a convoy makes it as easy as Jump -> Lock freighters -> Blap freighters, then they probably deserve to lose those freighters. But, not everybody is incompetent. And if they are, oh whelp.

Thirdly, mobile on-grid cyno jammer? Why not?

Fourthly, you guys love killing freighters? WTF?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#332 - 2013-05-31 00:42:27 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
If you hate nullsec because of large power blocs and big blobs, you should be happy about things like jump freighters and fast travel which make life easier for smaller power blocs.

Stop trolling.

You're right, any freighter I fly is bait and will never require a large defense fleet to protect because of my alliance ticker.

Almost forgot.

I'm talking about the part where you claim JFs make life easier for small blocks.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#333 - 2013-05-31 01:12:34 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Firstly, it would only be so long before you couldn't field fleets of suicide dreadnoughts and Maelstroms, since you would have to build stuff locally, which requires resources diverted away from your defense budget.


So the ultimate outcome is a decreased number of fights. Got it!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#334 - 2013-05-31 02:31:16 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Firstly, it would only be so long before you couldn't field fleets of suicide dreadnoughts and Maelstroms, since you would have to build stuff locally, which requires resources diverted away from your defense budget.


So the ultimate outcome is a decreased number of fights. Got it!

What's really going to bake your noodle, is that less power projection equals more fights.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2013-05-31 03:40:13 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Andski wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Firstly, it would only be so long before you couldn't field fleets of suicide dreadnoughts and Maelstroms, since you would have to build stuff locally, which requires resources diverted away from your defense budget.


So the ultimate outcome is a decreased number of fights. Got it!

What's really going to bake your noodle, is that less power projection equals more fights.



They don't see it that way, all they see is OMFG YOUR TRYING OT NURF ARE BLOB, or OMFG YOUR TRYING TO NURF NULL SEC, or OMFG YOUR TRYING TO MAKE ARE LIFE HARDER.





if there lord and master had posted this same idea it would be the best thing in the world.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#336 - 2013-05-31 04:17:28 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
What's really going to bake your noodle, is that less power projection equals more fights.


Power projection is a separate discussion

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#337 - 2013-05-31 04:21:14 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
if there lord and master had posted this same idea it would be the best thing in the world.


do you actually buy into this "nullsec players are enthralled by their overlords" narrative because lawl

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#338 - 2013-05-31 04:54:15 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:


Firstly, it would only be so long before you couldn't field fleets of suicide dreadnoughts and Maelstroms, since you would have to build stuff locally, which requires resources diverted away from your defense budget.

Secondly, not everybody is a carebear that thinks loading up a freighter with valuables and piloting it willy nilly through unsecured space is a great idea. There are ways to move a freighter more quickly and ways to keep it out of harms way. There are ways to increase the security of the space around you. There are ways to diminish the likelihood of a traitorous act. There are ways of mitigating the results of a traitorous act, and, most importanly, there are ways of dealing with traitors.

You are thinking of a line of Obelisks full of space gold with 10 Rifters escorting them, but the one "convoy" I ever laid eyes on was 1 freighter and at least 30 escorts, battleship and battlecruiser heavy, and probably with capitals on standby. The one freighter escort op I was on was through well-known blue space. There was 1 freighter and 9 scouts. If any of our scouts had contacted you, we would have interdicted you and the freighter would have logged off.

If the logistics team that puts together a convoy makes it as easy as Jump -> Lock freighters -> Blap freighters, then they probably deserve to lose those freighters. But, not everybody is incompetent. And if they are, oh whelp.

Thirdly, mobile on-grid cyno jammer? Why not?

Fourthly, you guys love killing freighters? WTF?


We wouldnt be losing that maelstrom fleet and said fleet has the power to alpha through abaddons. Freighters do not have abaddon tanks and align like carriers. We could land at range and blap every freighter with very little trouble. We dont need cynos to get there and we would have as much time to plan the attack as the defender have to plan the convoy. You couldnt protect those whales with hundreds of ships let alone 30.

Hell we dont even need an alpha fleet to do the job. A flight of bombers would be just as effective. Convoys are simply too easy to kill today to work.
Tightass Trixie
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#339 - 2013-05-31 05:39:10 UTC
don't screw with new mechanics limiting where cynos can be placed.

Use the existing mechanic and lore about not being able to place cynos in highsec, but make it bi-directional. Make it so that you can't lock onto cynos from highsec.

Which playstyles does this change affect?
Jumpfreighters and Black Ops - that's it.

Jumpfreighters:
Put's a little more risk to the pilots for having to make that one jump into a lowsec system in order to jump to a destination. Also makes it more difficult to ship all supplies from Jita as you can't jump off the undock.

Blops:
What's the diff between buttSEKZ hotdropping from highsec as opposed to stqaging the fleet in a nearby lowsec before sticking it to that unsuspecting station camper?

What are the holes in this idea? Other than -- NO DON'T MAKE JF HARDER!!!!RAGERAGE111!!!!
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#340 - 2013-05-31 05:49:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
What's really going to bake your noodle, is that less power projection equals more fights.


Power projection is a separate discussion

Power projection is the very core of many debates currently, this one included.