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nullsec hulk vs mackinaw ice mining

Author
Flardowell
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-05-29 06:07:53 UTC
My question is with perfect boosts is it better to have 3 hulks and a protector or 4 tanky macks with drones for rats based on the current exhumer changes. Stuck trying to decide between the two
Danni stark
#2 - 2013-05-29 07:54:35 UTC
why not 4 hulks?
Flardowell
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-05-29 08:11:41 UTC
Because hulks alone are difficult if not impossible to get a workable nullsec rat tank and best yield. A lot easier on the macks
Danni stark
#4 - 2013-05-29 08:31:16 UTC
Flardowell wrote:
Because hulks alone are difficult if not impossible to get a workable nullsec rat tank and best yield. A lot easier on the macks


after fitting lasers and upgrades the hulk has 58.13 cpu, and 11.75 pg. the mack has 44.79 cpu, and 20.75 pg. both have 4 mids and 1 rig slot to fill.
you're not fitting much tank to either of them, neither have the PG for even a medium shield extender, for example. and the mack is out of cpu as soon as you throw an invuln on it.
that's with an all V character, and i don't know many people that train mining upgrades to V so that means most people won't even be able to fit an invuln (at least, not a t2 one) on a mack.

if you're worried about tank, use the ship designed for the job.
Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
Ghostbirds
#5 - 2013-05-29 11:50:13 UTC
Nullsec rats aren't a problem in a hulk. I have two and rarely warp out.

Mack's are actually harder to fit. However I use Mack's now for the mining jetcan since with upcoming scanning changes I'm not going to want to use jetcans like I do now.

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Honest Blob
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-05-29 18:01:20 UTC
Flardowell wrote:
My question is with perfect boosts is it better to have 3 hulks and a protector or 4 tanky macks with drones for rats based on the current exhumer changes. Stuck trying to decide between the two



Hulks pull in far more ice an hour than macks do period. If your in nullsec you should always use hulks as they are the best ore ice and merc mining ships now period. You need to put an A or B type small shield booster on them nowadays and have a full drone bay of medium t2 drones. Most miners including myself still have a protections character from when u had to belt tank the rats and he sits in a ship that has reps and lots of drones and keeps the hulks alive when rats spawn and kills the rats.
Danni stark
#7 - 2013-05-29 18:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Danni stark
less than 10% is not "far more" (edit; just did the maths and it's a touch over 8%, that's less than 1 ice harvester upgrade).

until exhumer III a mackinaw out yields a hulk, for ice, anyway. that's the power of a third low slot and the hulk's ****** bonuses.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#8 - 2013-05-30 20:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Danni stark wrote:
less than 10% is not "far more" (edit; just did the maths and it's a touch over 8%, that's less than 1 ice harvester upgrade).

until exhumer III a mackinaw out yields a hulk, for ice, anyway. that's the power of a third low slot and the hulk's ****** bonuses.

Why do players have so much trouble seeing this. Yes with maxed skills the HULK out mines the mack. But only with a small margin. the hulk gets 3% per level of exhumers while the Mack gets 1%, But as you said the Mack has an extra low slot. Sure you can stick with 2 MLU's and fit a DCII, but if you fit 3 MLU II's at 9% each plus 5% for exhumers 5 you got 32% boost, I'll ignore the other bonuses as they are the same for both ships. The HULK gets 2 MLU II's at 9% each plus 15% from Exhumers 5 and 15% from mining barge 5 for a total of 48%, 16% better than the Mack.

At exhumers 2 this advantage drops to 29% for the MACK and 39% for the HULK for ORE. Some players thing this is the same for ICE, but it is not.

With ICE the bonuses are different. the HULK only gets 4% per level of Exhumers, with no bonus from mining barge skill, while the mack still gets the 3 low slots, and 1% per level of exhumers. At Exhumers 5 for ICE the MACK still gets its 32% bonus while the HULK is down to 38% only a 6% advantage at exhumers 5. At exhumers 4 the MACK is at 31% While the HULK drops to 34%, at exhumers 3 the MACK is still at 30% while the HULK drops to 30%, dead even, anything below exhumers 3 the MACK will out perform the HULK when mining ICE. And this does not even consider the MACK having over 4 times the ore hold.
Danni stark
#9 - 2013-05-30 21:01:32 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
And this does not even consider the MACK having over 4 times the ore hold.

nor does it consider the mack having higher base ehp than the hulk.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2013-05-31 00:47:01 UTC
Having done Ice mining in 0.0 in the old Mack, if you have 4, you'll do fine with either. Just keep a flight of lights and a flight of light shield bots in each drone bay.

Kill tackle rats, kill DPS rats, then switch to RR (or, if they're focusing fire, toss some RR drones out to support the primary while its damage drones whittle away).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

GreenSeed
#11 - 2013-05-31 04:02:29 UTC
ice yield is still hull(cubes/h): hulk (75) - cov (72) - mack (70) - retty (66) - Skiff (64) -Proc (61). no idea why you are all doing numbers, you should know them by heart by now.

all values are under orca boost, considering that chasing ice will often leave you with no rorq boost. anyway, boosts are % increases, so they don't change the solution. neither does the fact that come odyssey its x2 to all values.

if you had 3 hulks out and one jammer/rat killer you will be getting 75*3=225 cubes/h but you will need a hauler. going down to macks you get 72*3=210 cubes and they can haul their own crap.

if instead you go for 4 "tanky macks", dropping one MLU to fill mids with tank/small booster, while changing shield rig for CPU and adding a DCU on lows, they will net 64 cubes/h, giving you 256 cubes/h total.

coincidentally, 64 cubes/h is the yield of a skiff, that has 4 times the EHP, room to fit a jammer/point and wont die horribly to a solo SB. not to mention currently a skiff will set you back 45 millon isk less than a mack.


it does have half the hold, but it also has 2.5x the speed and 1/3rd of the align time. also, you should consider that your tank will let you fend off rats easily, even a faction spawn, while also being able to point and last long enough to get some real dps on grid, or just plain kill the hostile if they are on a frig or cruiser. 4 skiffs give you 4 ewar slots and 20 lights on field + 20 on reserve!




also.. A types on a hulk... wtf honest blob, if you are trying to get the OP to do something stupid please don't be so conspicuous.
Tash'k Omar
Indefinite Mass
#12 - 2013-05-31 06:22:17 UTC
Flardowell wrote:
Because hulks alone are difficult if not impossible to get a workable nullsec rat tank and best yield. A lot easier on the macks


Hulks are very easy to tank adequately for nullsec. The only problem is it often requires splurging for faction hardeners (low CPU), and it doesn't have the powergrid for a medium shield booster, so you're stuck using deadspace small, which have climbed up in price recently.

I bought about 15 Gistii B-Type Small Shield Boosters when they were around 50m each, and use them for all my Exhumer fits. along with some Dread Guristas hardeners, you should have no trouble tanking any nullsec spawn, as well as enough fitting room for max yield + tank. (Toss some Siege Warfare links on the Rorqual and tanking is even easier).

This fits with Electronics/Engineering 5 and Mining Upgrades 4 (I've NEVER found the need to train it to 5, it's just not worth it to me).

Quote:
[Hulk, Serpentis]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field
Domination Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
Supplemental Thermic Dissipation Amplifier

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


Hornet II x5
Mining Drone II x5


Things add up fast, those super low CPU resist amps have climbed up in price in the past year or so iirc, so this fit might not be viable. I would consider it the pinnacle of nullsec mining however, as anything above this is just not needed (i.e. wasting money).

Max skills, Max Rorqual (in siege), and a 3% yield implant nets you 3169 m3 per minute + 312.5m3 per minute from drones (if you so choose)

To compare, here would be a mackinaw fit requiring the same fitting skills:

Quote:
[Mackinaw, Serpentis]
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II
Mining Laser Upgrade II

Gistii B-Type Small Shield Booster
Domination Thermic Dissipation Amplifier
Domination Kinetic Deflection Amplifier
[empty med slot]

Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Arkonor Mining Crystal II

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I


Hornet II x5
Mining Drone II x5


Yield is 2743+312.5 with the same setup as above.

I personally would use hulks. They have less ehp, but better tank due to more fitting room. I've used the hulk setup on numerous occasions to great success. The only real trouble you have is a triple BS spawn where all focus on one ship, and even then if you're quick with drones you shouldn't have to warp out ever. Another handy thing to do is use 5x shield maint drones instead of combat drones or mining drones. Then you really never have to warp out. A moderaly skilled flight of light T1 shield drones reps 13.8 shield/s, compared to the 25 shield/s of the B-type booster (after non-mindlinked boosts).
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#13 - 2013-05-31 06:42:31 UTC
Not sure why skiff isn't even mentioned for low-nulsec... rats... versatility... I don't know...
Tash'k Omar
Indefinite Mass
#14 - 2013-05-31 07:33:08 UTC
^^ Because the yield is pitiful.
Dave Stark
#15 - 2013-05-31 08:56:01 UTC
Tash'k Omar wrote:
^^ Because the yield is pitiful.


yield isn't that bad, the problem is it doesn't offer any meaningful tradeoffs for the lower yield. the mack and hulk both have sufficient tank to A) not be profitable to gank, and B) to tank most null sec rats long enough to deal with them in some capacity.

so you simply trade yield for.... nothing.