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Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2013-05-30 16:22:59 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

Who gives a crap about industry? We want the ability to blow up ships carting billions in cargo.. If we blow it up then stuff gets more expensive, meaning you make profit anyway off someone else's losses. Well as long as your smart and don't get blown up yourself.

We're not playing Excel Spreadsheets Online, we're playing Blowing Up Spaceships Online... its just EvE for short cuse BUSO sounds Japanese


Indeed you do. But no one is going to fly hauler trains about the place for you to blow up just because they like you. They're going to go to all that effort and expense and risk only if it's more profitable to do so. It's not anymore and it never will be again.

Sorry if that's not what you want to hear but life is hard sometimes.


Perhaps you are right or perhaps not. One thing that is certain is that you can never say it'll never happen in EvE. We've had devs say things will never happen and they have despite that. Remember the Yulai superhighway? We very well might see some form of convoys flitting about null and low in the future without the super-safe supercapital superhighway that is bridging :) That would be super.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#302 - 2013-05-30 16:26:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Perhaps you are right or perhaps not. One thing that is certain is that you can never say it'll never happen in EvE. We've had devs say things will never happen and they have despite that. Remember the Yulai superhighway? We very well might see some form of convoys flitting about null and low in the future without the super-safe supercapital superhighway that is bridging :) That would be super.


Convoys cant work in todays EVE. There is just too much firepower out there and carriers are more common these days than BS were back in the days convoys were used.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#303 - 2013-05-30 16:27:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:


The only way you lose a JF is by being a complete moron, and any one that dose logistics for any group is far from it.

There for to safe.


You light your cyno and the JF jumps in. Because you've used your usual spot on the usual station, there's a cloaked stealthbomber waiting between you and the station. He lights his cyno the instant you jump in, and a dreadnaught plus a couple of tackle ships jump in and you get bumped out of docking range by the suddenly appearing dread. You don't have enough cap to jump out and you're quickly pointed. The dreadnaught melts you in a few seconds.

The only counter is to never jump into a system with any hostiles in. If you follow this rule, your route is trivially interdictable.

Please explain to me how this evil stealth bomber was able to be cloaked well within the station dock range?

I believe you would like to see industry thrive in null space, we all do. But some of your posts suggest you have no clue how some of some of these things, like JF supply lines to Jita, work. I think you are worried CCP will nerf logistics methods from Jita to null without buffing null industry to a point where harvesting and building supplies in null is more logical than just shipping in everything. I guess that is a valid concern, but you need to realize that as much as the disparity between industry in null and industry in high sec is broken to ******** levels; the easy of logistical movement and power projections is just as equally broken.

All those dead jump freighters you like to point out to defend the current JF and how it is used died from suicide ganks or idiots cyno'ing into a system on a POS, instead of a station. Yet for those of us who use just an ounce of precaution make the use of the JF 100% safe. Anyways, again, please explain that stealth bomber cloaked inside the station dock radius again please. It made me giggle.
Gustaf Heleneto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#304 - 2013-05-30 16:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustaf Heleneto
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Nullsec is shockingly deficient in low-end minerals.


Holy **** ***** **** **** son of a God ****! That is an actual quote. Talk about playing fast and loose with the facts.

Low end minerals come from low end ores. Low end ores are far more abundant in low and null sec than they are in high sec. If you mine the low end ores and refine them, they will become low end minerals. If you need further explanation of this game mechanic, there is a nice lady named Aura who you can talk to. She can direct you to some mining tutorials that will explain it all in greater detail.

What the ******* **** suck ***** hallelujah are you talking about? OMFG


Oh you must be referring to the asteroid belts. Sure,belts contain some low end minerals, but not nearly enough...they don't contain enough high end minerals either! Couple that with the fact that roid belts have a slow respawn(even in null), and we see that most 0.0 mining is done in Grav sites because they can be essentially permanently refreshed. However, the ratio of minerals in 0.0 Grav sites is tilted heavily to high end materials, so the is a shortage of low ends!

Is this all bad? Not really, miners get high quality ore to move to high sec for sale....but that further reinforces nullsec's dependency on high sec! Ore balancing has worked towards fixing the ratios of minerals in nullsec...another step in the right direction of making 0.0 a worthwhile place to live!
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#305 - 2013-05-30 16:37:50 UTC
Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
Oh you must be referring to the asteroid belts. Sure,belts contain some low end minerals, but not nearly enough...they don't contain enough high end minerals either! Couple that with the fact that roid belts have a slow respawn(even in null), and we see that most 0.0 mining is done in Grav sites because they can be essentially permanently refreshed. However, the ratio of minerals in 0.0 Grav sites is tilted heavily to high end materials, so the is a shortage of low ends!

Is this all bad? Not really, miners get high quality ore to move to high sec for sale....but that further reinforces nullsec's dependency on high sec! Ore balancing has worked towards fixing the ratios of minerals in nullsec...another step in the right direction of making 0.0 a worthwhile place to live!

They could have just allowed the players to choose what kinds of ores are prospected for instead of spawning always the same belts with the upgrades, but that would have required actual work and not just some tweaking of refining numbers.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#306 - 2013-05-30 17:03:56 UTC
Stonecrusher Mortlock wrote:
Why is there no way for us to attack supply lines in eve?

The addition of Jump capable ships, made supplying large groups less of a chore, but had the adverse effect of making supply lines completely immune to attack in any meaningful form.

Try as you might there's no effective way to cut your opponent off.


Warp dec there haulers? - NPC Corp

Gank them? - sec status drops to quickly to be effective.

Attack them in low sec or Null? - Local Intel, Instant 100% correct, check local see person, don't undock/jump.

AFK in Local? - add new jump points, AFKer cant be in every system at one time.

As it stands now in eve your supply lines are 99% safe 99% of the time if you only take the simplest of precautions.

Baring the random tard the logistic back bone of every group in EvE is safely tucked away behind Extremely easy counters.




When i first started playing EvE i Wanted to be a pirate praying on the Haulers moving the Supply's from high sec to low and null, and the riches from null/low to high-sec. In the start it was great fun fighting the fleets guarding these haulers for the hopes of getting the sweet loot that was inside of them. We Even had deals going to actively hunt some corps supply lines for a while.

But that Play stile is long dead, and in the past years of eve.

Now i spend my time patrolling WHs for even a small reminder of the days of old.



----------------------------------


see that cyno over there? warp to 0km and bust up that supply line :P

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#307 - 2013-05-30 17:35:45 UTC
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Ioe Oria wrote:
I've always been curious as to why you could jump right next to a station. It seems like it would have been more logical to have an exclusion zone (like with smart bombs, but presumably larger). Make it large enough and you could actually catch ships trying to get a station. Although I doubt it would change much, since looking at jump ranges it isn't like most Alliances have to worry about a lot of unsecured midpoints to their own territory if you have JDC V.



An easier and long over due fix is that warp scram should prevent docking. Would end station (sexually unconservitive indivudals) from hanging around stations and spreading disseases.


The amount of tears this would cause its so HUGE! if only you could look outside the station tho, seems unfair that the only way to know someone is outside is to die.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#308 - 2013-05-30 17:52:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Perhaps you are right or perhaps not. One thing that is certain is that you can never say it'll never happen in EvE. We've had devs say things will never happen and they have despite that. Remember the Yulai superhighway? We very well might see some form of convoys flitting about null and low in the future without the super-safe supercapital superhighway that is bridging :) That would be super.


Convoys cant work in todays EVE. There is just too much firepower out there and carriers are more common these days than BS were back in the days convoys were used.

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
#309 - 2013-05-30 17:55:03 UTC
Because there are no such thing as supply lines. Every player effectively sits on mountains of personal wealth so you would have to decisively oust a player from their territory or constantly inflict huge loss on them in order make any dent in the way they play. All of which are very hard to do and generally not in the control of the aggressing player, sadly.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#310 - 2013-05-30 17:55:51 UTC
Gusfaf Heleneto wrote:
Oh you must be referring to the asteroid belts. Sure,belts contain some low end minerals, but not nearly enough...


Ok, so, then, where do you think low end minerals come from? If not the belts (rat loot, also).

Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
. . . we see that most 0.0 mining is done in Grav sites because they can be essentially permanently refreshed. However, the ratio of minerals in 0.0 Grav sites is tilted heavily to high end materials, so the is a shortage of low ends!


So, what Malcanis should have said, what would have been TRUTHFUL, is not that low end minerals are scarcer in null. They are far, far more abundant in null. What he should have said, what would not have been a lie, is that high end minerals are far, far more, stupidly, incredibly, stupefyingly, outrageously more abundant in null, and that the disparity in potential output of low end minerals of high sec versus null sec pales in comparison to the disparity in potential output of high end minerals of high sec versus null sec. So, it is not that Bob Highsec has more cats than Jim Nullsec. It is that Jim Nullsec has a thousand times more dogs than Bob Highsec, and is upset that he only has 100 times more cats than Bob Highsec.

Thanks for clarifying.
Gustaf Heleneto
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#311 - 2013-05-30 18:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gustaf Heleneto
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Gusfaf Heleneto wrote:
Oh you must be referring to the asteroid belts. Sure,belts contain some low end minerals, but not nearly enough...


Ok, so, then, where do you think low end minerals come from? If not the belts (rat loot, also).

Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
. . . we see that most 0.0 mining is done in Grav sites because they can be essentially permanently refreshed. However, the ratio of minerals in 0.0 Grav sites is tilted heavily to high end materials, so the is a shortage of low ends!


So, what Malcanis should have said, what would have been TRUTHFUL, is not that low end minerals are scarcer in null. They are far, far more abundant in null. What he should have said, what would not have been a lie, is that high end minerals are far, far more, stupidly, incredibly, stupefyingly, outrageously more abundant in null, and that the disparity in potential output of low end minerals of high sec versus null sec pales in comparison to the disparity in potential output of high end minerals of high sec versus null sec. So, it is not that Bob Highsec has more cats than Jim Nullsec. It is that Jim Nullsec has a thousand times more dogs than Bob Highsec, and is upset that he only has 100 times more cats than Bob Highsec.

Thanks for clarifying.


My dog ate 3 cats and Jim has a bum leg...invalid argument.

The ratio is off 'nuff said. Until you do some meaningful mining in 0.0 please don't comment.

Thanks for contributing.

And you are failing to address the OP and the topic here...the bad mineral ratio(among many other things) encourages shipment to
Hisec, production and either sale of goods in high sec or eventual return to nullsec. It's kinda what this thread is about.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2013-05-30 18:34:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Delen Ormand
Malcanis wrote:

Delen Ormand wrote:

Assuming cynos and bridges were nerfed, the benefit would be that you wouldn't have to make freighter runs between null and hisec. You make the stuff there, you use the stuff there.

I'd be in favour of null being able to improve facilities to compete with hisec, but the costs should be absolutely massive, both in terms of time, ISK and effort. Hisec has the backing of long established empires, they can afford to build facilities almost as they please. But null alliances aren't really empires in the same way, they're kind've newcomers on the scene. I'd love it if they could work their way up to that level, but it can't be something that an alliance just sinks an insignificant amount of ISK into and then bingo, they can compete with say, the Amarr Empire. The effort it takes should reflect that infrastructure projects on that kind of scale can only really be done when people are invested in a common cause and are bonded by years of a common culture and vision for the future. It can't be a case of "oh, cool, I sold those 5 Typhoons, I'm going to use that ISK to pay for 300 more manufacturing slots and a new 99.9% efficient refinery".



So in short, you think it's OK for hi-sec manufacturing to be massively advantaged for lore/fluff reasons?

I mean even with the lore reason you cite, yes the Empires built those stations; that doesn't mean that they're eager to let pod pilots use them essentially for free. (IIRC it costs about 2000 ISK to make a 230 million ISK Maelstrom, which is such a small fee that it's effectively free)

What if they suddenly decide that they need to recoup that investment, because after all, there is a war on, and raise slot use prices to reflect the market value of the facility? OK so now you have to pay 23 million ISK to use an NPC station to make a Maelstrom. How about that? 10% seems like a pretty reasonable cut for that convenience and safety, and after all, you do have the option of using a POS manufacturing array instead.


To be honest, I'd have no problem with upping the costs for using hisec facilities, they probably are a bit on the low side. I won't comment on the actual percentage, as I don't have enough experience in manufacturing anything other than basic T! bits and pieces.

But, having said that, what I'd be wary of is arriving at a position where null had no need of hisec. The relationship should be symbiotic. If it were simply a case of buffing null industry until it could match empire space, that's way too one-sided for my liking, especially if there were no changes to bridges and cynos. It'd effectively mean that null would hold all the cards - you have better access to materials, your manufacturing would be as efficient, and you could transport it to hisec with minimal risk.

If, God forbid, I were in charge of game mechanics, I suppose my gut reaction would be to start with the following:

1) Have the improve null manufacturing. Paying for manufacturing slots should have diminishing returns, though - so by the time you have more slots than an Empire station, you'll be paying an absolute craptonne for it. It should be profitable to do, but you need to think very carefully about if you can invest the necessary resources and how long it will take to start paying off.

2) Either no jump freighters or big changes to limit how they're used. If you have the option to gain materials and manufacture things more efficiently than hisec, there should be a higher effort involved in getting those items to market. Plus it'd mean more targets, fights and explosions, which can't be bad. Yes, it'd mean much more effort involved in hauling goods to hisec and back, but if null manufacturing is improved then this will be less of an issue as they'll be less dependant on hisec. Besides, if there's the opportunity to profit from a trip, effort and/or risk should increase accordingly. If the profit isn't worth it, don't do it.

3) Increase hisec production costs. Not necessarily a direct tax, but you want to reflect hisec advantages. Eg, payment to CONCORD for providing deterrance to pirates. Maybe involve a fee for entering hisec space? Provide small rep increases over time to the station owner to reflect that you're a valued customer?

4) Be careful not to make hisec or nullsec independant of each other. There has to be some interplay between the two.

These are just ideas I've pulled out of my ass, though. I'm sure there's flaws, it's not some fully thought out design document.
Garresh
Mackies Raiders
Wild Geese.
#313 - 2013-05-30 18:52:11 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:


The method I suggested in the other thread was to make it so cynos no longer appear on the overview, but jump drives are no longer able to jump straight into a POS bubble or onto a station. Also maybe some travel time could be added when jumping. Yes this would affect my current gameplay and make it harder, but to be honest I feel as I am being forced into a boring mechanic anyway so that is why I don't mind.


You already can't cyno into a POS bubble.

I feel like this "fix" to logistics is a solution looking for a problem. If 0.0 industry isn't competitive with hi-sec industry (it isn't) then the proper course of action is to correct the imbalance, not nerf logistics because nullsec players are (rightly) reluctant to do industry under such heavy handicaps.

Once the TCP of 0.0 and hi-sec are fairly close to each other, then the issue of logistics between 0.0 and hisec becomes moot.

The thing is cyno mechanics in general need to be looked at. Not just with regards to logistics, but PvP in general. You can't cyno into a pos bubble but you can cyno just outside and slow boat in, or even easier just dock straight into a station. Lets see if this resource rebalance fixes the issue though, it is a step in the right direction for certain. I would like to see null sec and high sec a bit more cut off from one another though, however that is achieved, I think it would have good results as long as all the resource and industrial issues in null sec are significantly buffed first.


I'm not averse to a look at the way jump ships work, but it's an absolute imperative that 0.0 production be fixed first. There can be no compromise on that.



I don't think anyone is disagreeing there. Fix nullsec production and industry, the change cynos to actually have some risk. Maybe make jump drives had mass limitations or have a residual energy discharge which makes it unsafe to dock or enter a force field for 5 minutes.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#314 - 2013-05-30 19:03:56 UTC
Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
...invalid argument.


How so?

Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
Until you do some meaningful mining in 0.0 please don't comment.


I have done meaningful mining in 0.0. Try again?

Gustaf Heleneto wrote:
And you are failing to address the OP and the topic here...the bad mineral ratio(among many other things) encourages shipment to
Hisec, production and either sale of goods in high sec or eventual return to nullsec. It's kinda what this thread is about.


The topic is supply lines and logistics (or lack of supply lines and lack of need for logistics). The "problem" is that it is easier, cheaper, better, etc. to set up a market order in Jita, fill it, and haul a freighter of T1 battleships into Bumfukt, Nullsecregion than it is to mine two or three systems away from your station systems in null, refine in your station or in a POS, and just build stuff there. The question is: Should it be easier? Shouldn't there be a trade-off?

The answer to that question depends on what kind of player you are. If you are a "PVPer", hauling and doing industry on-site are both a pain in the ass. If you are a greedy marketeer, you want every .01 ISK for your wallet, and doing either of those adds overhead to your operating costs. But, if you are an industry player or logistician or you prefer to PVP in a more force protective mode than a force projective mode (i.e. defensive, not offensive), then hauling through hostile sectors or doing industry in essentially a wilderness is actually the fun part of the game.

Personally, I still don't understand why being a null sec player is such a badge of honor for so many that you would endure the horrendous, atrocious, unbearable horrendous (did I use that one already?) horror of having to live null sec. If I hated null sec as much as some of you do, I'd just pack up and move back to high sec.

Ultimately, you may not like it, but PVE is part of this and just about any game. SPACE IS AN ENVIRONMENT. If you remove the environment, you are essentially removing half the game.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#315 - 2013-05-30 19:04:47 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.


We would use carriers as jump freighters. Anyone attempting to run a convoy would get suicide dreads/PL super fleets/tornado alpha fleets dumped upon them. They simply wouldn't work.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2013-05-30 20:24:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.


We would use carriers as jump freighters. Anyone attempting to run a convoy would get suicide dreads/PL super fleets/tornado alpha fleets dumped upon them. They simply wouldn't work.

That wouldnt be the case if moving caps around was so easy to do. One would assume that if moving goods around was a little harder then moving caps would be at least as difficult.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#317 - 2013-05-30 20:31:54 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.


We would use carriers as jump freighters. Anyone attempting to run a convoy would get suicide dreads/PL super fleets/tornado alpha fleets dumped upon them. They simply wouldn't work.

That wouldnt be the case if moving caps around was so easy to do. One would assume that if moving goods around was a little harder then moving caps would be at least as difficult.


When we had convoys a big fleet was something like 200 people. These days when a call goes out its not uncommon to find two or three full fleets of arty maelstroms. Its impossible to protect freighters against just one fleet of alpha ships let alone 3. Then there are bombing runs, alpha nado fleets ect.

Convoys cannot work with the population we have these days.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#318 - 2013-05-30 20:39:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.


We would use carriers as jump freighters. Anyone attempting to run a convoy would get suicide dreads/PL super fleets/tornado alpha fleets dumped upon them. They simply wouldn't work.

That wouldnt be the case if moving caps around was so easy to do. One would assume that if moving goods around was a little harder then moving caps would be at least as difficult.


When we had convoys a big fleet was something like 200 people. These days when a call goes out its not uncommon to find two or three full fleets of arty maelstroms. Its impossible to protect freighters against just one fleet of alpha ships let alone 3. Then there are bombing runs, alpha nado fleets ect.

Convoys cannot work with the population we have these days.


How dare you meantion the things that exist today that didn't exist when people moved stuff in convoys let alone the extreme population increase of EVE online?

Those things don't matter, don't you know all you have to do to make things like 2004 is change 1 thing then everything is wonderful?

Also, **** yo couch -sarcasm meter-, you can afford to buy another.
Stonecrusher Mortlock
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2013-05-30 21:01:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.


We would use carriers as jump freighters. Anyone attempting to run a convoy would get suicide dreads/PL super fleets/tornado alpha fleets dumped upon them. They simply wouldn't work.

That wouldnt be the case if moving caps around was so easy to do. One would assume that if moving goods around was a little harder then moving caps would be at least as difficult.


When we had convoys a big fleet was something like 200 people. These days when a call goes out its not uncommon to find two or three full fleets of arty maelstroms. Its impossible to protect freighters against just one fleet of alpha ships let alone 3. Then there are bombing runs, alpha nado fleets ect.

Convoys cannot work with the population we have these days.



If you had to form that fleet, move the actual jumps in space to get there would it still be as easy as you say it is? Remember jumping system to system takes time.

That population only matters because it can be so easily moved around the map, Cynos, JB, JF, and titan bridges are the equivalent of mage portals on the game that will not be named.

You change how cynos and other forms of fast travel work and you add the SPACE back to eve, as well as more game play options.

If it takes 4 or 5 titans to just 2 fleets so what, you ether GET more titans or spend more time jumping the fleet, it also requires more cynos to be lit.

Its absurd, we have the ability to add more meaningful game play elements to the game besides BLOB, BIGGER BLOB, KING SIZED BLOB, SUPER BLOB.

But we cant have the because that would be a change, and you would have to change they way you do things, and you would not be as safe as you are now.

That's all it boils down to is it not?
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#320 - 2013-05-30 21:41:16 UTC
And how would people know about these conv... Oh, yeah. 100% instant, 100% effort fee and 100% accurate local channel and directional scanner.