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[Odyssey] Navy Battlecruisers

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Florian Kuehne
Tech3 Company
#521 - 2013-05-28 14:40:36 UTC
Whats with the Commandship changes you guys released on fafnfest? I cannot see any of one thing on sisi or on the unoffical patchnotes. You bring out new battlecruiser, now navy stuff from it, and no love to commandships.

Navy BC > CS

Please make the commandship attractive again, you skill a ton of stuff to fly it.
Problems are:
- to much skill time, i remember my goal was an eos back in time...then THE BIG NERFS,now every bc is better.
- better boni like u planned, BUT WHY NO FLEET BONI FOR DAMAGE? u have armor, shield, speed, Sensorstrength but why no damage?
-better options to go for damage or fleet/tank
CptBlack
Beyond Tranquility
#522 - 2013-05-28 15:06:10 UTC
Why not give the drake navy issue % to missile dmg caldari being mostly missiles I'd thought they'd be able to do that and speaking from personal experience it's not the size of the target ship I'm shooting at that's a problem it's normally the speed so a bonus to explosion velocity would be more suited

My ideal would be 5% to missile dmg per level instead of just a kinetic dmg
10% to missile explosion velocity
Surely I can't be the only one who thinks like this.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#523 - 2013-05-29 06:19:32 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


But what does that mean??? .....in real terms the price of navy battlecruisers will be??????


probably around 150-170m

Cheaper than command ships by a fair margin.



Rather pick a command ship all the time and for whoever can't use it yet a good reason to train for it: real tank and real dps worth the price even if it's already not that cheap

Those navies are not worth of more than 70M for lazy people and you guys already speculate on 170M? -Navy Hurricane is nothing but the old Hurricane hull worth of 34M, same for other navies.

With ore changes and some of this minerals crap going on now, will really be worth to have an industrial char doing missions or afk mining more than ever to build your own stuff and laugh at the market.

Why make things fun in a GAME when you can make them more painful and tedious than stuff you do at your own work?

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#524 - 2013-05-30 13:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Okay. Here's my view of the navy BCs as they stand on SiSi now. I'm probably going to screw up the maths for the percentages, but whatever.

Harbinger -

63,889 EHP
622.1 DPS
6.8km + 3.8km range
0.1125 rad/sec
800.5 m/s

Navy Harbinger - ... (Gains + 1 Extra Medium Slot)

84,694 EHP .....................(+ 20,805 (32.56%))
695.4 DPS .......................(+ 73.3 (11.78%))
8km + 5.7km range..........(+ 1.2km optimal (17%), +1.2km falloff (50%))
0.1605 rad/sec................. (+0.048 (42.6%))
800.5 m/s

Huge buff. Obtains extra slot for more tackle, tracking or cap (The fitting used has an extra tracking computer there). Extra PG allows higher tier weapons, and still have more tracking than the non-Navy.



Brutix -

55,789 EHP
775.6 DPS
1.9km + 5km
0.165 rad/sec
903.6 m/s

Navy Brutix - ...................(Gains + 1 Extra Low Slot)

77,486 EHP ..................(+ 21,697 (38.9%))
852.7 DPS..................... (+ 77.1 (10%)
1.9km + 5km
0.2268 rad/sec............. (+ 0.0618 (37%)
890.0 m/s.......................(- 13.6 m/s (1.5%))


Big buff. The extra lowslot, plus the extra powergrid, allow me to upgrade the meta 4 1600 plate to a T2 (For a minor loss of speed) and add an extra MFS.



Hurricane -

37,441 EHP
534.7 DPS
3.5km + 25.3km
0.1173 rad/sec
1473.5 m/s

Navy Hurricane - .... (Gains + 1 Extra High Slot)

52,088 EHP ...........(+ 14,647 (39.1%))
534.7 DPS
3.5km + 25.3km
0.1173 rad/sec
1474.8 m/s............. (+ 1.3 (0.082%)

Nearly 40% tank buff to a shield tank (And I'd suppose to armor as well), plus gets a second utility high. And a rather strange miniscule buff to speed. I can't imagine why, but it is there.



Drake -

58,358 EHP
480.9 DPS
62km Range
121.5 m/sec velocity / 105m radius
1044.6 m/s

Navy Drake -.................................... (Loses - 1 Utility High)

69,628 EHP............................................... (+11,270 (19.3%))
428.3 DPS................................................ (- 52.6 (-12.3%))
94km range...............................................(+ 32km range (51.6%))
121.5 m/sec velocity / 78m radius....... (+ 27m radius (34.6%))
1194.5 m/s ...............................................(+ 149.9 (14.3%))

Not quite a direct upgrade. Tank increase is much lower than that of the other Navy ships.
Is the only ship to have a directly lowered stat (Loses over 10% of its DPS), and is the only ship to have less usable slots than it's non-Navy version. This puts it at 10 usable slots, over the others 12.




All of them, except the Navy Drake, look like straight upgrades. I'm not entirely sold on the Navy Drake, as that damage decrease will hurt it heavily in any fight against a cruiser or bigger, and the loss of the utility high will hurt it against anything smaller.

Rainbow damage is nice, but in practice is very rarely a factor, and only ever comes into play against certain ships. While the option to use something other than kinetic is nice for when going up against T2 Gallente ships, the loss of 12% of your damage against everything else is not.



EDIT: Had a look at the Navy Drake for PVE. Seems to have a significantly lower passive tank than the non-Navy drake, in both resistances and raw shield recharged, plus does less DPS.

Again, not a good choice.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#525 - 2013-05-30 13:48:30 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Okay. Here's my view of the navy BCs as they stand on SiSi now. I'm probably going to screw up the maths for the percentages, but whatever.

Harbinger -

63,889 EHP
622.1 DPS
6.8km + 3.8km range
0.1125 rad/sec
800.5 m/s

Navy Harbinger - ... (Gains + 1 Extra Medium Slot)

84,694 EHP .....................(+ 20,805 (32.56%))
695.4 DPS .......................(+ 73.3 (11.78%))
8km + 5.7km range..........(+ 1.2km optimal (17%), +1.2km falloff (50%))
0.1605 rad/sec................. (+0.048 (42.6%))
800.5 m/s

Huge buff. Obtains extra slot for more tackle, tracking or cap (The fitting used has an extra tracking computer there). Extra PG allows higher tier weapons, and still have more tracking than the non-Navy.



Brutix -

55,789 EHP
775.6 DPS
1.9km + 5km
0.165 rad/sec
903.6 m/s

Navy Brutix - ...................(Gains + 1 Extra Low Slot)

77,486 EHP ..................(+ 21,697 (38.9%))
852.7 DPS..................... (+ 77.1 (10%)
1.9km + 5km
0.2268 rad/sec............. (+ 0.0618 (37%)
890.0 m/s.......................(- 13.6 m/s (1.5%))


Big buff. The extra lowslot, plus the extra powergrid, allow me to upgrade the meta 4 1600 plate to a T2 (For a minor loss of speed) and add an extra MFS.



Hurricane -

37,441 EHP
534.7 DPS
3.5km + 25.3km
0.1173 rad/sec
1473.5 m/s

Navy Hurricane - .... (Gains + 1 Extra High Slot)

52,088 EHP ...........(+ 14,647 (39.1%))
534.7 DPS
3.5km + 25.3km
0.1173 rad/sec
1474.8 m/s............. (+ 1.3 (0.082%)

Nearly 40% tank buff to a shield tank (And I'd suppose to armor as well), plus gets a second utility high. And a rather strange miniscule buff to speed. I can't imagine why, but it is there.



Drake -

58,358 EHP
480.9 DPS
62km Range
121.5 m/sec velocity / 105m radius
1044.6 m/s

Navy Drake -.................................... (Loses - 1 Utility High)

69,628 EHP............................................... (+11,270 (19.3%))
428.3 DPS................................................ (- 52.6 (-12.3%))
94km range...............................................(+ 32km range (51.6%))
121.5 m/sec velocity / 78m radius....... (+ 27m radius (34.6%))
1194.5 m/s ...............................................(+ 149.9 (14.3%))

Not quite a direct upgrade. Tank increase is much lower than that of the other Navy ships.
Is the only ship to have a directly lowered stat (Loses over 10% of its DPS), and is the only ship to have less usable slots than it's non-Navy version. This puts it at 10 usable slots, over the others 12.




All of them, except the Navy Drake, look like straight upgrades. I'm not entirely sold on the Navy Drake, as that damage decrease will hurt it heavily in any fight against a cruiser or bigger, and the loss of the utility high will hurt it against anything smaller.

Rainbow damage is nice, but in practice is very rarely a factor, and only ever comes into play against certain ships. While the option to use something other than kinetic is nice for when going up against T2 Gallente ships, the loss of 12% of your damage against everything else is not.


Well i think the cane and drake tell you something about their T1 versions state of power...
T1 Drake tank is still OP
T1 cane is still versatile and pretty mobile.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#526 - 2013-05-30 13:51:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Jonas Sukarala wrote:


Well i think the cane and drake tell you something about their T1 versions state of power...
T1 Drake tank is still OP
T1 cane is still versatile and pretty mobile.


Considering I'm directly comparing the non-navy ship to their navy ship counterpart and nothing else...

No, it doesn't tell us anything about them VS other ships.
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#527 - 2013-05-30 15:45:05 UTC
Unfortunately it seems the navy drake will be overshadowed in everything from this, my suggestion?

+1 Lowslot to Navy Drake, this will allow for another BCS to actually make it that little bit better than the original drake, as navy ships should be.
-Buhhd
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#528 - 2013-05-30 15:46:57 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Drake -

58,358 EHP
480.9 DPS
62km Range
121.5 m/sec velocity / 105m radius
1044.6 m/s

Navy Drake -.................................... (Loses - 1 Utility High)

69,628 EHP............................................... (+11,270 (19.3%))
428.3 DPS................................................ (- 52.6 (-12.3%))
94km range...............................................(+ 32km range (51.6%))
121.5 m/sec velocity / 78m radius....... (+ 27m radius (34.6%))
1194.5 m/s ...............................................(+ 149.9 (14.3%))

Not quite a direct upgrade. Tank increase is much lower than that of the other Navy ships.
Is the only ship to have a directly lowered stat (Loses over 10% of its DPS), and is the only ship to have less usable slots than it's non-Navy version. This puts it at 10 usable slots, over the others 12.


All of them, except the Navy Drake, look like straight upgrades. I'm not entirely sold on the Navy Drake, as that damage decrease will hurt it heavily in any fight against a cruiser or bigger, and the loss of the utility high will hurt it against anything smaller.

Rainbow damage is nice, but in practice is very rarely a factor, and only ever comes into play against certain ships. While the option to use something other than kinetic is nice for when going up against T2 Gallente ships, the loss of 12% of your damage against everything else is not.

EDIT: Had a look at the Navy Drake for PVE. Seems to have a significantly lower passive tank than the non-Navy drake, in both resistances and raw shield recharged, plus does less DPS.

Again, not a good choice.

The Navy Drake earn more subtil changes : damage application and speed. That does not translate into raw eft numbers or direct pve advantage, but that's still very usefull.
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#529 - 2013-05-30 16:17:34 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The Navy Drake earn more subtil changes : damage application and speed. That does not translate into raw eft numbers or direct pve advantage, but that's still very usefull.


And when has anyone ever complained that the Drake needed better damage application? It's a pointless bonus.
Perihelion Olenard
#530 - 2013-05-30 20:43:06 UTC
I would have rather seen the changes to links and command ships over navy battlecruisers, but I'll still fly one once in a while.
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#531 - 2013-05-31 00:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Shade Millith
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The Navy Drake earn more subtil changes : damage application and speed. That does not translate into raw eft numbers or direct pve advantage, but that's still very usefull.



As someone that's flown the Drake for years in PVP, the damage application bonus is barely useful because it's extra damage application on LESS damage. And I'm using both my experience, and EFT. My experience with the ship gives me the gut feelings, while EFT gives me the maths.



Comparing a Drake with 450 DPS and 105 Radius HMLs.
To a 'Navy Drake' (A drake in EFT butchered to act like one) with 409 DPS (Only 10% lowered damage) and 75.8 Explosion Radius (A 38.5% increase) HMLs, according to EFTs DPS calculator. So the 'Navy Drake' will performbetter than the real one.

A MWDing Raptor that takes 106 DPS from a Drake outside webrange would take 109 DPS from a Navy Drake. (2.8% increase)
A MWDing Sabre that takes 158 DPS from a Drake outside webrange would take 166 DPS from a Navy Drake. (5% increase)
A MWDing Omen takes 289 DPS from a Drake outside webrange, would take 312 DPS from a Navy Drake. (7.9% increase)
An ABing Omen takes 233 DPS from a Drake outside webrange, would take 250 DPS from a Navy Drake (7.2% increase)
A MWDing Hurricane takes 450 DPS from a Drake outside webrange, would take 409 DPS from a Navy Drake. (10% decrease)

Testing ingame seems to back this up. Drake's volly on an ABing Omen is 585. Navy Drake is 632. (8% increase). Does not include drone damage.


Smaller ships have a damage increase (Outside of web range). Larger ships have a larger damage decrease.



And this is saying nothing about the lost effective highslot, which also can't be shown on paper.

The missile velocity bonus is near useless for HMLs in a PVP situation where this ship would be (Small/Medium gang) and for HAMs is okay. With or without the Explosion Radius bonus, HAMs are still going to need to be in web range to really work.

Speed bonus and the extra tank are it's only real benefits. It's damage and less one effective slot (less two effective slots compared to the other Navy ships) are demerits. And are enough of demerits that I'm going to have to give the ship a miss.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#532 - 2013-05-31 02:13:54 UTC
So a navy drake will cost over 3x as much as a regular Drake and do less DPS but have more tank? Who is supposed to want to buy this? The Drake needs less DPS and more tank said noone ever
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#533 - 2013-05-31 02:55:32 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
.

A MWDing Raptor that takes 106 DPS from a Drake outside webrange would take 109 DPS from a Navy Drake. (2.8% increase)


What game are you playing where a ceptor takes 106 dps from a drake?
Shade Millith
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#534 - 2013-05-31 03:53:44 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Shade Millith wrote:
.

A MWDing Raptor that takes 106 DPS from a Drake outside webrange would take 109 DPS from a Navy Drake. (2.8% increase)


What game are you playing where a ceptor takes 106 dps from a drake?


That includes the damage from 5 Warrior II's.

No, it's not a perfect showing of damage, but it's close enough. Without the drones, it would 26 DPS from the Drake, and 29 DPS from the Navy Drake.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#535 - 2013-05-31 06:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
CptBlack wrote:
Why not give the drake navy issue % to missile dmg caldari being mostly missiles I'd thought they'd be able to do that and speaking from personal experience it's not the size of the target ship I'm shooting at that's a problem it's normally the speed so a bonus to explosion velocity would be more suited

My ideal would be 5% to missile dmg per level instead of just a kinetic dmg
10% to missile explosion velocity
Surely I can't be the only one who thinks like this.


1. You're not the only one who thinks like this. Of course, you're also wrong, because explosion radius can mitigate the velocity factor, while explosion velocity cannot mitigate radius factor. In other words, an explosion radius bonus is far stronger than an explosion velocity would ever be.

2. Navy Drake doesn't have a kinetic bonus, it has a velocity bonus, which translates into range (and somewhat easier damage application). Combined with its greater speed and lower mass, it's clearly intended to be used as a kiter, rather than the Brick. I.e., the Navy Drake is likely supposed to be the ultimate Podla Drake.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#536 - 2013-05-31 18:40:49 UTC
Shade Millith wrote:
Rainbow damage is nice, but in practice is very rarely a factor, and only ever comes into play against certain ships. While the option to use something other than kinetic is nice for when going up against T2 Gallente ships, the loss of 12% of your damage against everything else is not.
This is huge. Allows a ship to take on all T2 ships instead of one of them. (T2 Gallente, Caldari, Amarr have boosted Kinetic resistance).
Jade III
Sebiestor Tribe
#537 - 2013-05-31 21:22:54 UTC
Will these ships be available in the online market as well as the LP store?

My adventure blog: http://lonewolfadventures.wordpress.com/
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#538 - 2013-06-01 11:51:41 UTC
My apologies if someone already stated this but after page 19 I just couldn’t read anymore.

At the current conversion rate of 2k ISK per LP the FW guys will be expecting 200 mil plus the cost of the trade hull (40mil) so an HFI should hit the market at a cost 240 mil.

Unfortunately if you’re a standard Mission grinder to make the same profit margin the 200k LP converted makes the market price 440mil or (Ignoring the cost of production) 500mil if you go the BP route

The real losers are Incursion runners with a .8 transfer fee on LP means 250k LP plus the 100 mil BP or 40 mil hull means a price of 600mil is expected.

My point? I am not sure if these are the prices someone would pay for a PVP ship, therefore relegating these ‘Shiny’ ships to a life of hangar candy or worse.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#539 - 2013-06-01 12:29:50 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
My apologies if someone already stated this but after page 19 I just couldn’t read anymore.

At the current conversion rate of 2k ISK per LP

FW conversion rate for ship is around 1k isk/LP...
Perihelion Olenard
#540 - 2013-06-01 15:09:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
I hopped in the navy Brutix. It seems to have a good amount of fitting and great HP. I had enough PG to fit ions, small neut, MWD, small cap booster II with navy 400s, and a tech 2 1600mm plate. I definitely like it. It may end up being my favorite ship to fly.