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I may have asked this here before about in-game banks

First post
Author
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#1 - 2011-11-03 22:03:15 UTC
I see there is a current bank announcement that is clearly a scam, so that got me musing about them again.

Personally, I don't think I have the in-game or out of game resources to create/maintain one.
But hypothetically, what would it take to run/maintain one?

Things I know you would absolutely have to have: Trusted Name affiliated with the bank, or a group that is not going anywhere.
Something like The Interstellar Bank of Chribba, or Eve University Bank.

Beyond that, what kind of ingame/out of game resources would be needed to actually run one, not some Ponzi scheme?

Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2011-11-03 22:25:47 UTC
Nothing. Never gonna happen.

Think about something useful.
Thomas Eto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2011-11-04 01:28:07 UTC
Most people have decided it will never happen because there is ALWAYS more reason to scam then not.

Hypothetically, a bank could work if (Yes, this is very impossible) every deposit was 100% collateralized by the bank through a super well trusted third party (or five, let's be honest) but that'd get tricky as the bank would need to grow the collateral as they paid interest and it'd get odd very quickly.

DJ Blackman
Often AFK
#4 - 2011-11-04 05:11:44 UTC
'enormous success' LOLWUT

Wallets of many people including my own disagrees with you ^^

Get RAW32 in here NAO
Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2011-11-04 05:14:57 UTC
DJ Blackman wrote:
Wallets of many people including my own disagrees with you ^^


I`ll just preserve your use of the original and ultimate scammer line.

We`ll make a contest where all the players can see how many times they can find this line used in past scams.
DJ Blackman
Often AFK
#6 - 2011-11-04 05:17:02 UTC
hm....why am i arguing with my own shill alt? o wai...
Stealing Honest
Stealing Honest Speculation Group LLC
#7 - 2011-11-04 06:11:53 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I see there is a current bank announcement that is clearly a scam, so that got me musing about them again.

Personally, I don't think I have the in-game or out of game resources to create/maintain one.
But hypothetically, what would it take to run/maintain one?

Things I know you would absolutely have to have: Trusted Name affiliated with the bank, or a group that is not going anywhere.
Something like The Interstellar Bank of Chribba, or Eve University Bank.

Beyond that, what kind of ingame/out of game resources would be needed to actually run one, not some Ponzi scheme?




This is why we tried a different style with Eve Phased Credit Bank [EBNKS]. Though we are still small, once people use us they seem to like the idea. Plus some too seem to like building credit .


SH
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2011-11-04 08:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
judging by this thread EOH violates several laws of nature.

the basic structure of banks - trusted guy with wallet, relatively independent tellers, loan officers, ... whose balances with the bank are evened out every few days, semi-independent accounts/auditors - is nothing new and there should be many threads on that topic.

Only recent "lesson learned" is to watch what your software guy is doing behind your back.

Why banks?

(1) term transformation
short-term liabilities are used to fund long-term loans. Given the illiquidity of the secondary market in MD this is a very valuable function.
This function requires a lender of last resort to prevent panics (could be a network of other banks, the MD public, a rich sugar-daddy, ... just has to be reliable).
A bank which thinks its core business is to sell long-term CDs should do some soul-searching.

(2) risk transformation
The bank's equity and diversification in investments cushions its creditors from losses.
On the other hand a more fancy bank can pass down certain risks to its creditors to match their preferences and income expectations.
Banks that sacrifice diversification for convenience are either stupid or have outgrown any reasonable size.

(3) convenience denomination
If you have only 17m chances are you can't help anyone in MD. With the support of a bank you can.

(2) and (3) can be handled by investment funds, (1) is what sets banks apart.
egola
NSFW federation
#9 - 2011-11-04 18:49:13 UTC
make eve real life and lol at people for scamming, done and done.
TornSoul
BIG
#10 - 2011-11-04 20:41:10 UTC
*The* BIGgest problem with running a full fledged bank is the issue of "diminishing returns".

While you might be able to secure a, say, 3% return on deposits for a total deposit of say 50B-100B reasonable comfortably, imagine maintaining that for a trillion+ ISK...

This is why BMBE isn't a deposit bank.

Companion Qube
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2011-11-04 21:10:46 UTC
Florestan Bronstein wrote:
judging by this thread EOH violates several laws of nature.

the basic structure of banks - trusted guy with wallet, relatively independent tellers, loan officers, ... whose balances with the bank are evened out every few days, semi-independent accounts/auditors - is nothing new and there should be many threads on that topic.

Only recent "lesson learned" is to watch what your software guy is doing behind your back.

Except that EOH isn't a bank, it's a poker platform. Were you referring to something else?
Avensys
The Waterworks
#12 - 2011-11-05 07:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Avensys
Companion Qube wrote:
Except that EOH isn't a bank, it's a poker platform. Were you referring to something else?

the organizational issues (and trust issues) are basically the same as those faced by a bank.

many of the "banks can never work" arguments would also apply to EOH, Blink, ... - yet people seem to have no issues using these services.
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#13 - 2011-11-05 08:32:58 UTC
Offtopic posts removed. Please keep the discussion on track.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire

Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#14 - 2011-11-05 14:01:28 UTC
Avensys wrote:
many of the "banks can never work" arguments would also apply to EOH, Blink, ... - yet people seem to have no issues using these services.


While there are some similarities between these gambling institutions and banking institutions, there are also massive differences.

An EVE bank needs to generate isk to pay interest on deposits and to cover other costs. An EVE gambling institution simply needs to take isk from it's clients, return some in the form of prizes and use the rest to cover costs. It is fairly obvious which one of those two models is more scaleable.

The administrative, transactional and security issues are similar though and the solutions to those are all well understood.

To my mind, there are two key issues with EVE banking that have not been solved:

1) The ultimate security of the deposits always comes down to trust.

2) Banking is not scaleable or lucrative enough for honest banking to be worthwhile.

How can you accept the risk involved in trusting a person, or group of people, with a very large amount of isk on the basis that they will extract a relatively meagre income from working that isk. In circumstances such as these there is a large and logical incentive to scam and only honor, roleplaying or foolishness prevents it.

By contrast a gambling institution can make money hand over fist while still being honest. That is something that you can logically trust.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#15 - 2011-11-05 14:35:01 UTC
I think my original question was more about "what kind of mechanics/resources are required ingame and out of game to make this work?"

How does a person convert loan requests and savings deposits into some kind of out of game database to keep track of it all?
How do you automate interest withdrawals and interest deposits on a large scale?

That kind of thing.

I would think that the the potentially large amount of email that a banker or banker corp would receive would demand automation, and then you are talking macros, and then you are talking big trouble with the EULA.
Blueprint Seller
Bring Me Sunshine
#16 - 2011-11-05 14:51:29 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
How do you automate interest withdrawals and interest deposits on a large scale?

You can automate client deposits from reading the API and matching the character names on isk transfers to your customer list. This way your clients can give you money and have their account updated without you having to do anything manually.

Similarly, you can automate interest payments in your database by just updating each clients account balance.

Withdrawals have to be done manually. Either deal with it yourself or employ tellers to handle withdrawals for you. Tellering can be secured by various means: API monitoring, collateral held by you, or take the franchise approach and get them to use their own isk to satisfy withdrawals in the first instance with you refunding them the amount of the accumilated withdrawals plus their transaction processing fee on a regular basis.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would think that the the potentially large amount of email that a banker or banker corp would receive would demand automation, and then you are talking macros, and then you are talking big trouble with the EULA.

Don't even think about handling transactions through mail and don't touch any macro automation. Automate what you can through a database and the API, the rest you either do yourself or pay others to do for you.

The sooner you outsource all the work the better. Get others to do the tellering, get others to do the isk making and just take your cut. There isn't enough profit in the business for it to be worth doing any of the work yourself. A semi-passive income at this rate is reasonable, actively making money at this rate is foolishness.

Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#17 - 2011-11-05 15:12:55 UTC
Blueprint Seller wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
How do you automate interest withdrawals and interest deposits on a large scale?

You can automate client deposits from reading the API and matching the character names on isk transfers to your customer list. This way your clients can give you money and have their account updated without you having to do anything manually.

Similarly, you can automate interest payments in your database by just updating each clients account balance.

Withdrawals have to be done manually. Either deal with it yourself or employ tellers to handle withdrawals for you. Tellering can be secured by various means: API monitoring, collateral held by you, or take the franchise approach and get them to use their own isk to satisfy withdrawals in the first instance with you refunding them the amount of the accumilated withdrawals plus their transaction processing fee on a regular basis.

Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
I would think that the the potentially large amount of email that a banker or banker corp would receive would demand automation, and then you are talking macros, and then you are talking big trouble with the EULA.

Don't even think about handling transactions through mail and don't touch any macro automation. Automate what you can through a database and the API, the rest you either do yourself or pay others to do for you.

The sooner you outsource all the work the better. Get others to do the tellering, get others to do the isk making and just take your cut. There isn't enough profit in the business for it to be worth doing any of the work yourself. A semi-passive income at this rate is reasonable, actively making money at this rate is foolishness.




Thanks for the answer. That does clear a lot up.
RAW23
#18 - 2011-11-05 18:23:05 UTC
DJ Blackman wrote:
'enormous success' LOLWUT

Wallets of many people including my own disagrees with you ^^

Get RAW32 in here NAO


When performing summoning magic the basic principle is 'naming calls'. It helps if you get the name right.Blink

I had to go to eve-search to see what you were talking about but I wouldn't want to deny that Elise is a good scam-sniffer. She has a pretty decent history of success in that area. Unfortunately, the suspicious tendencies that help with exposing scammers also run the risk of deteriorating into paranoia, which may now be manifesting along with the early stages of megalomania and a messiah complex.

More likely, though, is that Elise knows another important magical law: 'That which I say three times is true'.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

RAW23
#19 - 2011-11-05 18:35:06 UTC
On topic:

The bank model that attempts to be analogous to real life banks is a highly dangerous one for a range of reasons, not least of which are the software issues mentioned above.

However, a while back I was tinkering around with a savings 'bank' idea called Eve Heroes Investment Corp that took into account some of the points in the OP. This would be based on a) a corp manager running one or more funds, with b) each fund consisting of BPOs of all types locked down by a single 'Eve Hero' (Chribba, Grendell, TS etc) with fund sizes initially capped well under the 'prestige scam' level. Investors would buy shares in whichever fund they preferred and the manager would only have access to BPCs and those researched BPOs being sold (the value of which would always be less than the security deposit the manager would have to put up temporarily whilst handling prints, or under the level of the manager's stake in the corp). Withdrawal requests would amount to requests to liquidate a portion of the fund with prints being unlocked for sale on a once a month basis (the primary structural aim being to minimise the workload of the Hero to one lock/unlock session per month) and withdrawals being processed in a waiting order system that could take a while. Dividends would be paid by the manager through the holding corp and shares would be openly tradeable.

Of course, none of this could prevent a scam but I think the model would provide about a safe a system as you could get in eve with the current mechanics. The setup would be cumbersome with regard to withdrawals but sustainable in the long term.

My primary interest in this, though, would be to have the shareholders in more or less full control so that they could vote out and replace the manager, making for a true publicly owned corp.

There are two types of EVE player:

those who believe there are two types of EVE player and those who do not.

Elise DarkStar
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2011-11-05 22:42:40 UTC
RAW23 wrote:
Unfortunately, the suspicious tendencies that help with exposing scammers also run the risk of deteriorating into paranoia, which may now be manifesting along with the early stages of megalomania and a messiah complex.


Look at this desperate character assassination. I`ll take it as a sign that those at the top of the corrupt and insular MD hierarchy are truly afraid of the People`s Revolution erupting across this forum.

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