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Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

First post First post First post
Author
Drachiel
Mercury LLC
#201 - 2013-05-29 07:04:32 UTC
Keep "Unknown"

It makes finding wormholes much cooler. Though I guess by now technology will have advanced to recognize a trillion ISK industry
AbsoluteHavoc
Hybrids of Steel
#202 - 2013-05-29 07:12:02 UTC  |  Edited by: AbsoluteHavoc
Athena Maldoran wrote:
Oddyssey will be awsome, can't wait for launch. I've been on the testserver and doing some practising. Twisted


Think you meant to say practicing. Swirly red lines under a word mean you misspelled it, just letting ya know.

And what are you practicing for ? Even a child can do it. Even the current system isn't very complicated to use it's just a damn mini game that requires minimal intelligence to use and average to perfect/develop a custom technique that works best for you.


Thank you CCP for dumbing down the last bit of PVE ( and even PVP if combat probing is concerned) that required a bit of technique and encouraged you to find your way of doing things.
How can you possibly take a system that works so well and has so many subtle nuances and just take a dump on it ? How can you ? Have you consulted a single player while deciding what to change ? As usual, course not.

Leave probes behind ? Now why would anyone ever do that...
Be exposed for more/less time in a combat scanning situation based on how many probes you decide to launch ? Risk losing a faction probe launcher when your little pointy frig gets popped cause u wanted to have a bit more scan strength/deploy probes faster ?
Have to be fast (if taking a freaking hour can even be called that) or you might lose your probes cause they don't last foreveeeer ?
Have reasons to train skills ? No let's just give everybody everything at lvl 1.
Could go on and on but you don't give a f&^* so I won't bother. The CSM was there and you didn't even bother to consult em.


Maybe you still can't get this through your heads but CASUAL OR EVEN AVERAGE GAMERS WILL NEVER PLAY EVE !
Doesn't matter how much you simplify things, they won't do it. Stop making everything for everybody EVE's good because it's not about that...
A training system that has you wait ?
A game that's a lil' bit about having fun and more about commitment, working hard and taking chances to the point where some people take it as seriously as they would matters IRL ?
Having to read tutorials ???? ( and then go on to read guides for 50+ hours honestly/get external apps)

I just don't get you guys. Do you not realize most ppl can't be arsed to even read an entire line of tutorial text ?
Just go and search "let's play" on Youtube and watch ppl go at it in some random games. Talking for 20 minutes about the subtleties between the Ice Comet that does 150dps for 3 seconds and Ice Blast that does 250 damage upfront and another 40dps for 4 seconds after that but has a half a sec delay.
You already have a players base. One of the most committed and long lasting. How about you actually cater to them and continue to slowly expand the game/the playerbase as you have in the past? Hmm ?


Oh and just to end this mostly pointless post that serves no real purpose but to alleviate my frustration here's what is actually broken about probing. It's a bit too fiddly (mainly because it sometimes selects celestials when you're simply trying to move probes about) and the destroy probes button needs to be moved by a few pixels to the right/have an even bigger red ball on it. And if I were to nitpick make the minimum window size a bit smaller. Everything else works fine. F%*@s sake...
Gwenywell Shumuku
#203 - 2013-05-29 07:15:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwenywell Shumuku
As many already stated i DISLIKE the "never lose your probes" and "removed DSP's". You are removing consequences and an aditional layer of gameplay (knowing how to use DSPs, and training for them as advanced probing).

It's like only PvEers did this changes and NO PvPer looked at this stuff....(pointing at the CSM....). I can't beleive you didn't see these problems during developement.

If you want to help noobs give them a set of "basic probes" you never lose, but not regular stuff. Since when is this an accepted mechanic in EvE to NOT lose anything? How about we apply this to drones, ammunition, containers....

And who ever agreed to remove DSPs? They are a perfect game-mechanic. You use them for scanning a system (pve and pvp), but they are not made for pinpointing. They need advanced skills to use and thus are "the next level" for probers.

I'm all for "make it a entry level profession", but that does not imply removing advanced gameplay.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#204 - 2013-05-29 07:24:54 UTC
So we already have indestructible cloths, now we get (unwanted) probes that auto-return themselves.
What's next you may ask? How about ships that respawn in your hangar after they've exploded?

Looks like the old meme that goons are about to destroy EVE is true after all, one expansion at the time.
Good job Soundwave & co. Ugh
l0rd carlos
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#205 - 2013-05-29 07:28:34 UTC
Roime wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:

The barrier for entering gets lower, being good at it still takes the same skill.


Lol no. Barrier for entry remains exactly the same, being good was made easier.


The skill changes + scanning modules + default probing layout makes is easier for a new player to learn how to probe.
I would say that this qualifies for a lower barrier.

For specific other things i still want to use my other probe layout.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#206 - 2013-05-29 07:34:26 UTC
Pak Narhoo wrote:
So we already have indestructible cloths, now we get (unwanted) probes that auto-return themselves.
What's next you may ask? How about ships that respawn in your hangar after they've exploded?

Looks like the old meme that goons are about to destroy EVE is true after all, one expansion at the time.
Good job Soundwave & co. Ugh

Infinitely respawning free ships are already in the game and have propably been here since day 1. They even give you a free mineral as a bonus, so surely it is the reason EVE has been slowly dying since lauch.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#207 - 2013-05-29 07:34:41 UTC
AbsoluteHavoc wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Warwick Bentley wrote:
In other words, to fix the trivial problem of probe loss by timer expiration required a change that became advertised as a feature. That it affects very useful and non-exploitative probe functionality doesn't seem to be an obstacle.


I think the entire idea of recalling probes automatically was to address the loss of probes by people who don't know what they are doing.

Those of us who have been long term subscribers are part of a niche of players who like hard games. So EVE now has a population of people who like hard games: all 300 thousand of us who live on the planet. To expand out of this niche, EVE has to cater to people who like the single-shard science fiction universe, but don't like hard games.

The next stage of course is to remove probes as items in the game and just have the probe launcher always launch 8 probes. Then there's no need to recall probes to the ship for fear of losing them and stranding the player in unknown space.

It's unfair to new players to cause them to feel loss. It's especially unfair to have regions of space which are easily accessible but very easy to get lost in. I wonder how many potential subscribers have been scared off because EVE was such a harsh universe to play in?

We need to drop this fascination with EVE being a harsh, cold universe. We need to take better care of new players, and perhaps consider treating them with kid gloves from time to time, and picking up their toys for them when they forget to clean up after themselves.


GTFO


Lol
AbsoluteHavoc, Mara Rinn's post was 102% sarcasm.
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#208 - 2013-05-29 07:41:24 UTC
Destination SkillQueue wrote:
Pak Narhoo wrote:
So we already have indestructible cloths, now we get (unwanted) probes that auto-return themselves.
What's next you may ask? How about ships that respawn in your hangar after they've exploded?

Looks like the old meme that goons are about to destroy EVE is true after all, one expansion at the time.
Good job Soundwave & co. Ugh

Infinitely respawning free ships are already in the game and have propably been here since day 1. They even give you a free mineral as a bonus, so surely it is the reason EVE has been slowly dying since lauch.


Come on, you know what I mean, not rookie ships. /o\

I just cannot get my head around why in a largely player driven economy they suddenly interferer with it like this. Probes are meant to be lost & replaced. Consequence of not using your head. Now there's non, ccp babysits you your way through probing.

Hurray!

Space Wanderer
#209 - 2013-05-29 07:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Here are a couple of points that have not been adrressed in either the SISI feedback threads nor the dev blog, and about which I am worried about:

1) Scanning modules.

They seem to be rather overpowered, compared to the current mechanics, despite the introduction of the stacking penalty. While you took care of the acquisition module by allowing only one, we still have pinpointing modules that when stacked can allow to find almost any site/ship in two scan cycles, and rangefinding modules that when stacked allow to find "unscannable" ships without need of virtue implants. Both situations imply a rather severe change in the gameplay. Reading the dev blog it seems that those changes have been overlooked, since they have not been addressed at all by a single dev. Any comments?

I also question the choice of making them passive modules. It stands to reason that if you really want to introduce such powerful modules they should at least be used only when you are uncloaked, thus adding an element of risk to the reward they give.

Finally, the fact that those modules are all for midslots probably means that anathema and cheetah are going to become almost useless. Do you plan to rebalance those two ships?


2) Lack of customizable formations.

While I don't mind the introduction of noob probe formations, what I really don't understand is why there is no way to save your own formations, and what is worse, why do you make even harder than it was before to deploy your own formations. There is really no reason to punish advanced explorers like that. I read that you have some vague plans to introduce it, but I urge you to put this very high in your priority list.


Additional observation

Honestly, the autorecovery of probes seems a real dumb-down of the game without any reason to exist, and is affecting lots of emerging gameplay. Seriously, why? For anything else, you have explained your reasons, and while I could not agree with all of them I can at least understand. But this? There is no sesnsible reason that I could see to kill gameplay that is already existing... At least allow to turn off the safeties.

Overall Impression

My general impressaion of this expansion is that while the vision is there, the design phase has been severely hurried, since so many changes have not been thought out as much as they could.
Space Wanderer
#210 - 2013-05-29 07:43:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Stupid double post
gawrshmapooo
J33 Monocombine
#211 - 2013-05-29 07:57:04 UTC
My 0.02 ISK:

Was the pre-Odyssey scanning system un-intuitive? Yes.
Was it broken? No it was not.

The system works, all the framework needed was already there, it just needed improvement and optimization.
Not a complete simplifying rebuild.

It was a solid mechanic that operated in a realistic and variable way.
The new changes feel very gimmicky and arcade-like.

On top of rebuilding most of the scanning interface as it is now, you are straight up denying the people who pay for this game emergent gameplay, which is the point of the entire game. It is literally taking the point out of eve.

Not literally as in destroying the game as a whole, but it blatantly contradicts the player driven nature of the game.

I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#212 - 2013-05-29 08:09:58 UTC
TurAmarth ElRandir wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Why would they make it so people don't lose probes anymore? I don't thing waiting for your probes to return or losing them in space was that big of an issue.



LOL never been in W-space huh? Empire, Hi, Lo & Null are NOT all of EvE. A huge risk, and a ton of fun are to be had in holes when either you forget to load a launcher, or screw the pooch and let your probes expire... Adventures in Holes can be a very interesting time for all involved... But, you wouldn't know anything about that now would you? LOL


Wait, you do know Polarized. is one of the biggest wormhole alliances out there right?

Are you saying that you are that much of a idiot that you can't remember to recall your probes before jumping through a wormhole?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#213 - 2013-05-29 08:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
From the devblog:

Quote:

The old decryptors had thematically strong, but very random names


This is what CCP is doing to EvE in the last years in a nutshell.

They could improve the game, they could add new content and even "newbie friendly content" (no, torturing new players with level 1 no reward missions is not "newbie friendly").

But no, the chosen path is to dumb EvE down to WoWtard levels.

When are we going to see EvE for Facebook, some now Korean owned cheap and boring title once owned by an Icelandic company?

"Ah, yes, but we tripled our revenue!". Ah, sure, so you just switched from the 10 years+ steady growth model to the crappy, basic MMO "big flash for 2 years then slowly die model".


Yes EvE was thematically strong.

One day they'll change "EvE" name to "E" because typing the whole name was too hard.



Awaiting for the promising time when the shiny new launcher will embed a Facebook page with the whole EvE (now reduced to a 20 lines script) fumbling inside.
Ptah of Thebes
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#214 - 2013-05-29 08:20:21 UTC
I find it hilarious that some people are complaining about Eve not being Sci-Fi and this update ruining their immersion. This is obviously because Eve already contains Newtonian physics, right? And projectile (to include Hybrids as well) weapons systems that travel up to hundreds of kilometers in an instant, barring of course missiles. Super-light speed is also scientifically possible.

In other words, you already suspend your disbelief for core aspects of the game. Please shut up about your "immersion" being the excuse for a change and give feedback based on game theory, player experience, balance, or something equally as valuable.
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#215 - 2013-05-29 08:34:16 UTC
my 2c:
- new modules: well... neutral on this one, I am slightly worried it will make probing difficult sigs too easy, therefore devaluating training of probing skills, but it might be fine. It gives us option of heavily specializing ship for probing what is both good and bad - good because extra options are good, bad because it gives even more incentive for using dedicated scanning alts and devalues all-in one ships (such as exploration tech 3s); while EVE is about more ships > all-in-one ship, I am not sure that "moar alts" is good approach to things

- skill changes: neutral on this one; slightly worried that training these skills to V will be even more pointless howeever - they take forever to train, so some use of them might be nice, currently they are just pointless time sing and will be even more pointless after expansion

- auto-launch and formations: don't like: sure, it is tedious to deploy them one by one, but it has its uses - do I want them out fast and cloak asap? Then I launch 4 or 5; do I want more scanning strength? I launch 7 or 8. Also it makes catching scanning ships even more difficult (not good); I get it that idea was to make scanning easier, but it was never hard in the first place. Simplifying it makes it more and more redundant mechanic, and these simplifications make probing borderline unneeded mechanic. Imo if anything, it should be made more difficult and tricky (though not necessary tedious):
- for example: you have random spots in system that screw with probes. You have special probes that discover these and special probes that can nullify them if you put them right on top. Alternatively, you can just compensate for it yourself by checking signatures, phantom signatures and similar.

- dsp removal: neutral:
if removal is due to dps not working as intended and therefore bordered as 'exploit', I support removal; I can understand devs don't want us to judge all sigs in system with one scan; however if it is made to simplify probing and make it 'more accessible', then I am heavily against it - while not perfect, mechanic has its place, has its use and is far from being mandatory - I just recently started using them and while really good in wh space, they are not nearly as game-breaking as some people claim - sure they make your life easier if you have 20 sigs in system, but if you have few (and know you will have few sigs only), I am better off just launching normal probes to save time

- auto return probes: big don't like:
- what if I want to leave combat probes in 'hostile' wh to annoy people who dwell inside and let them wonder if I sit cloaked and scan? It is perfectly good tactical option and this change is removing it.
- losing probes is annoying, but it is more complicated thing then just pushing 'return probes' - what if I come under attack at wh with my probes out? Will I sit there and get pounded before they return or jump through? What if I don't have reserve probes and therefore risk getting stranded in wh space? Also don't count on everyone remembering to return his probes when **** hits the fan; getting stranded in wh space should be real risk and this significantly reduces it

Final notes:
- more convenient is not necessary good: look at what WoW has become; put too much 'quality of life' improvements and you go to point where you break basic concepts of the game. While EVE is still holding its own against this effect, I am starting to smell changes in that direction - not good.
- simplifying EVE won't attract new players just as simplifying scanning won't attract more people to low-sec, 0.0 and wh exploration
Han Aruto
#216 - 2013-05-29 08:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Han Aruto
Whats the point of having a hidden belt you can warp to with NO effort put in finding it? Isn't that why we have Asteroid belts?
You want ore and u cant/ wont train to find the Hidden( Gravimetric sites) jump in a badge and warp to an asteroid belt.

Low and null sec mining should be dangerous but c'mon CCP, the risk of mining in low security space is ridiculous. If the system i am mining in is bigger than D-Scan range i wont even know whats going on until i am dead( but may be i am just a n00b).

So to be safe as miner, just dock up or pos up if a red gets in your system so if you are not in big mining corp or alliance( actually that wont help much anyways) just stay in hi-sec right?

What have you guys done Shocked
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#217 - 2013-05-29 08:42:45 UTC
Han Aruto wrote:

So to be safe as miner, just dock up or pos up if a red gets in your system so if you are not in big mining corp or alliance just stay in hisec right?

What have you guys done Shocked


It's called "Goonification", that is the act of catering only to zergs and blobs, screw everybody else.
Eru GoEller
State War Academy
Caldari State
#218 - 2013-05-29 08:47:25 UTC
With rats removed from profession sites bar w-space and COSMOS sites and i'm not going to do the minigame, what is there left for me to do in this "Exploration expansion".
Here's what i think i do, fit a ship ( Recon or a cloaky T3 ) with the new scanning modules and scrambler fitted, no problem there since i'm not fitting any analyzer tools.
Then i just enter any profession site i scan out, and have a go at the loot spewing out from someone who actually does the minigame.
In COSMOS sites a tanking ship will be enough to zip around and get what's spewing out from a successfull hack.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#219 - 2013-05-29 08:52:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Sorry, not hugely impressed.Straight

It appears you have spendt a lot of resources on reinventing the wheel and have come up with a lesser product than the origional. I do not understand who could authorize you to spend so much effort on a system that was already working fine before, while we have systems like PI who could seriously have needed the attention instead.

It also appears you have aimed this new design towards people who do not play Eve (yet). Why do you people never learn that attempting to bring in new customers is wasted if you alienate your existing customers in the process?

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Minadaar Kariu
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#220 - 2013-05-29 08:52:45 UTC
Logix42 wrote:
Scan probes recalling on jump / dock is ridiculous.

1) You are not keeping true to the core of EVE Online. Actions have consequences If someone leaves probes behind and gets stuck in a wormhole, or has to fly 10 jumps to buy more probes, that is good. Auto-recalling is bad hand holding and fundamentally flawed. Just don't.

2) There are several reasons more experienced pilots may want to leave probes out when they jump. They can act as a decoy to make people think someone is in system. Or you can jump back in and scan again in the exact same position. And I'm sure there are more that I don't regularly use/know about.


Quote for truth