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first experience with rockets
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Enochx Kaine
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-05-29 04:16:17 UTC
Dude....I just put three missle launchers and a bunch of rockets on my condor and holy hell....those things rule. It looks like missles are better than rockets, but there must be a trade off somewhere. Can someone tell me the pros and cons of rockets vs light missles vs heavy missles vs etc.? Is it just a capacitor thing or only a range thing or what?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-05-29 04:40:52 UTC
no form of missiles consume capacitor to fire.

Rockets and light missiles are the small sized weapons, rockets are short range and high damage while light missiles are long range and less damage

Same with heavy assault missiles, heavy missiles, cruise and torp. Just go up in size to medium and then large.

Art of Explosions
Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-05-29 05:28:01 UTC
Enochx Kaine wrote:
Dude....I just put three missle launchers and a bunch of rockets on my condor and holy hell....those things rule.


DUDE I know bro, one rocket launcher shoots three rockets visually each time!

Fitting a Corax with 7 Rocket Launchers IIs amounts to 21 rockets being shot every 4 seconds, not taking into account further training and BCUs.

It's like a baby doomsday every 4 seconds up in that ****.

CRAZY
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-05-29 05:30:13 UTC
As Tsukino said, between rockets and light missiles, it's question of range vs damage.

To clarify about the size: Heavy missiles deal more damage than light missiles against Cruisers (and bigger), but they have penalties against small, fast targets, so that light missiles usually deal more damage against Frigate sized targets.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#5 - 2013-05-29 06:13:47 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:
Enochx Kaine wrote:
Dude....I just put three missle launchers and a bunch of rockets on my condor and holy hell....those things rule.


DUDE I know bro, one rocket launcher shoots three rockets visually each time!

Fitting a Corax with 7 Rocket Launchers IIs amounts to 21 rockets being shot every 4 seconds, not taking into account further training and BCUs.

It's like a baby doomsday every 4 seconds up in that ****.

CRAZY

Not to rain on your parade much... but the visual effect of 3 rockets per launcher is just superficial. You only shoot one rocket per launcher per volley.

How did you Veterans start?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-05-29 06:30:32 UTC
I love how newbs can react to new things the discover in gameBig smile

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Zippy Aideron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-05-29 09:59:40 UTC
Just saying, lightmissiles do less dps but more alpha than rockets in turn they roughly do the same overall damage, only one does it quicker.

Zip
Ovv Topik
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-05-29 10:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ovv Topik
So adding to the answers already given:

Rockets traditionally sit well on 'tanky' 'brawly' ships that can take a punch.

Missiles are better suited to faster 'kiting' ships that 'speed tank' by maintaining a fast orbit at range. (usually by means of a mwd).

All three of the turret based weapon systems have the same 'hi dps/low range' or 'low dps/hi range' options.

Theres loads to learn buddy! Have fun trying them all out.

"Nicknack, I'm in a shoe in space, on my computer, in my house, with a cup of coffee, in't that something." - Fly Safe PopPaddi. o7

Enochx Kaine
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-05-29 13:05:45 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Agustice Arterius wrote:
Enochx Kaine wrote:
Dude....I just put three missle launchers and a bunch of rockets on my condor and holy hell....those things rule.


DUDE I know bro, one rocket launcher shoots three rockets visually each time!

Fitting a Corax with 7 Rocket Launchers IIs amounts to 21 rockets being shot every 4 seconds, not taking into account further training and BCUs.

It's like a baby doomsday every 4 seconds up in that ****.

CRAZY

Not to rain on your parade much... but the visual effect of 3 rockets per launcher is just superficial. You only shoot one rocket per launcher per volley.



lol. yall misunderstood I guess. I didn't mean the visual effect....although it does make me happy....I was talking about the damage. See I have been taking my sweet sweet time with the tutorial. That coupled with the fact that I don't necessarily play every single day and when I do I don't get to sit there for 4 or 5 hours at a time means that I have only finished the basic, business, and exploration tutorials. I think I have like 1 or 2 missions left in industry and the first military, but up until last night I have been running with the first little light blaster they give you. I also had a .75mm railgun that they gave me along the way, but those were my two guns. Those and antimatter charges.

ANYWAY, last night I said "enough of this nonsense" and I bought some missle skills to finally get my missles going. I mean here I am a brand new sub, Eve was good enough to give me a Condor and a Gnosis for signing up, so I MUST get missles. It is why I decided on Caldari to begin with. I already had like 25k each of scourge rockets and Mjolnir rockets (my spelling suck) from some business or industry mission where they give you a blueprint and you have to manufacture a bunch to deliver....the NPC let me keep the rest--nice guy. So since I already had those, I figured I would start with rockets. And so THATS what I meant....the damage was sweet. It made me happy.




But back to my topic....so what yall are saying is rockets have less range, but greater damage whereas light missles have more range but less damage. Is this correct?
Enochx Kaine
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-05-29 13:19:19 UTC
Ovv Topik wrote:
So adding to the answers already given:

Rockets traditionally sit well on 'tanky' 'brawly' ships that can take a punch.

Missiles are better suited to faster 'kiting' ships that 'speed tank' by maintaining a fast orbit at range. (usually by means of a mwd).

All three of the turret based weapon systems have the same 'hi dps/low range' or 'low dps/hi range' options.

Theres loads to learn buddy! Have fun trying them all out.



My abbreviations suck...what is "mwd"?

And also, I like the playstyle of a speedy, kiting type assault. I was wondering if I am doing it right though. my rockets have an optimal range of about 4k to 4.5k. What I do is orbit the guy I am shooting at 2.5k. Is this a correct attack plan? Or is there a better option of fighting?

Also, is it harder to hit a faster moving target in this game? I assume it matters if you are standing still or not...right? I mean it isn't like a turn based type game where it doesn't matter if you are jumping or running behind the guy, you are still going to get hit. This game isn't like that right?
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-05-29 13:39:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Elena Thiesant
Enochx Kaine wrote:
but up until last night I have been running with the first little light blaster they give you. I also had a .75mm railgun that they gave me along the way, but those were my two guns.


As a general rule, don't mix weapons. You want a full rack of the same weapons, that way you're 100% effective at one range rather than been a little bit effective at a few ranges.

So that would be rockets or light missiles, not both. Blasters or railguns, not both.

Quote:
But back to my topic....so what yall are saying is rockets have less range, but greater damage whereas light missles have more range but less damage. Is this correct?


Yes. Likewise blasters are short range very high damage and railguns are long range lower damage.

Edit: MWD = Microwarp drive.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-05-29 14:09:36 UTC
Nobody saw a major issue with the OP.

Pick either ALL rocketa or ALL light missile, dont combine them. Though not as bad as with guns (long range missiles have no problem with close stuff) its better to learn it that way...

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Merouk Baas
#13 - 2013-05-29 14:26:51 UTC
All guns in the game (lasers, hybrids, projectiles) and missiles are split into categories for each ship size, from frigate to cruiser to battleship, and for each size category you have short range and long range versions (blasters vs. railguns, rockets vs. light missiles, pulse vs. beam lasers, autocannons vs. artillery).

The short range weapons typically have more damage than the long range, but obviously are limited in range.

And, as you go up in size, the bigger weapons start having trouble actually hitting or doing damage to small ships. This is on purpose so newbies in frigates have a chance to not be one-shotted by veterans in battleships. A chance, not guaranteed survival, of course.

So that's what you can expect with the weapons in this game, basically.

You should always fit your ship with a strategy in mind.

If your aim is to use rockets, for example, that's close up melee, so definitely add an afterburner so you have the speed to get in range fast, and add some sort of shield OR armor defenses so you can take punishment as you are close to the nasty weapons of your enemies.

If you're using long range weapons, you may still need that afterburner to be able to stay at long range despite the enemy's best efforts, but you could fill your low slots with damage modules (heat sinks, ballistics computers, etc) instead of defenses, because who's going to hit you that far away, right?
Merouk Baas
#14 - 2013-05-29 14:35:40 UTC
RE: your question about fast targets, that goes into detail about how weapons track and hit. There are two different mechanics at play, one for guns one for missiles.

Gun turrets have trouble tracking small ships that orbit close and fast. The faster and closer, the harder it is for the gun to track it.

It's just that ships have agility and mass, so you may set that orbit for 500m but your ship just won't be able to turn that fast, so it will try to slow down in order to maintain 500m. Which you don't want, because speed is key. So the trick is to fly an agile ship, and to find the range where your ship can do an orbit at max speed without slowing down. 1000 m, 1500m?

Keep in mind that for PVP, you also have to stay OUTSIDE the range of things like smartbombs, webifiers, warp scramblers, etc., which will do nasty things to your fragile ship. So in some situations your range will have to be 10km or more, out of necessity.

On the other hand, missiles don't have a problem with orbiting, they have a problem with straight speed. So to avoid missiles you want to be small and fast, but not necessarily close to the enemy. The smaller the better; each ship has a stat called "signature radius" that is actually what's used for the purpose of calculating missile damage.

If you fly a destroyer, it has a bigger signature radius than a frigate, but otherwise has similar defenses. But the signature radius is just enough bigger that missiles will do full damage to a destroyer, where they may only do half damage to a frigate. Some people go for the bigger destroyer thinking "more guns = easier" but discover that it's harder to do missions where the enemy shoots missiles at them. They just die too fast.
Enochx Kaine
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-05-29 20:57:50 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
RE: your question about fast targets, that goes into detail about how weapons track and hit. There are two different mechanics at play, one for guns one for missiles.

Gun turrets have trouble tracking small ships that orbit close and fast. The faster and closer, the harder it is for the gun to track it.

It's just that ships have agility and mass, so you may set that orbit for 500m but your ship just won't be able to turn that fast, so it will try to slow down in order to maintain 500m. Which you don't want, because speed is key. So the trick is to fly an agile ship, and to find the range where your ship can do an orbit at max speed without slowing down. 1000 m, 1500m?

Keep in mind that for PVP, you also have to stay OUTSIDE the range of things like smartbombs, webifiers, warp scramblers, etc., which will do nasty things to your fragile ship. So in some situations your range will have to be 10km or more, out of necessity.

On the other hand, missiles don't have a problem with orbiting, they have a problem with straight speed. So to avoid missiles you want to be small and fast, but not necessarily close to the enemy. The smaller the better; each ship has a stat called "signature radius" that is actually what's used for the purpose of calculating missile damage.

If you fly a destroyer, it has a bigger signature radius than a frigate, but otherwise has similar defenses. But the signature radius is just enough bigger that missiles will do full damage to a destroyer, where they may only do half damage to a frigate. Some people go for the bigger destroyer thinking "more guns = easier" but discover that it's harder to do missions where the enemy shoots missiles at them. They just die too fast.


so then what are destroyers used for? Only pvp?

And when I am fighting either NPC or PvP...I want to orbit the enemy right?
Thomas Builder
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-05-29 21:31:48 UTC
Enochx Kaine wrote:
so then what are destroyers used for? Only pvp?
Oh, you can do PvE in Destroyers - they deal far more damage than Frigates, which allows you to complete missions more quickly. Just be aware that they also take more damage than Frigate, so if you have trouble surviving a mission in a Frigate, using a Destroyer won't help - on the contrary.

Enochx Kaine wrote:
And when I am fighting either NPC or PvP...I want to orbit the enemy right?
Not always.

Orbiting closely is a good idea if you have better tracking than your enemy, as it will reduce his damage more than yours.
OTOH, if you have better range than NPCs, I prefer to fly away from them in a straight line, matching their speed to keep them exactly at the distance I want them to be. While you could theoretically "orbit" at a large range, I find the flying manually in a straight line works much better.

In PvP, the same general rule applies, but it becomes more complicated depending on the circumstances. If you are in a small ship, you often (but not always) want to orbit closely, but not too closely, in order to stay out of smartbomb / web / point range. And you'll often have to fly manually, as good pilots will use the quirks of the autopilot against you.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#17 - 2013-05-29 23:15:34 UTC
Enochx Kaine wrote:
Merouk Baas wrote:
RE: your question about fast targets, that goes into detail about how weapons track and hit. There are two different mechanics at play, one for guns one for missiles.

Gun turrets have trouble tracking small ships that orbit close and fast. The faster and closer, the harder it is for the gun to track it.

It's just that ships have agility and mass, so you may set that orbit for 500m but your ship just won't be able to turn that fast, so it will try to slow down in order to maintain 500m. Which you don't want, because speed is key. So the trick is to fly an agile ship, and to find the range where your ship can do an orbit at max speed without slowing down. 1000 m, 1500m?

Keep in mind that for PVP, you also have to stay OUTSIDE the range of things like smartbombs, webifiers, warp scramblers, etc., which will do nasty things to your fragile ship. So in some situations your range will have to be 10km or more, out of necessity.

On the other hand, missiles don't have a problem with orbiting, they have a problem with straight speed. So to avoid missiles you want to be small and fast, but not necessarily close to the enemy. The smaller the better; each ship has a stat called "signature radius" that is actually what's used for the purpose of calculating missile damage.

If you fly a destroyer, it has a bigger signature radius than a frigate, but otherwise has similar defenses. But the signature radius is just enough bigger that missiles will do full damage to a destroyer, where they may only do half damage to a frigate. Some people go for the bigger destroyer thinking "more guns = easier" but discover that it's harder to do missions where the enemy shoots missiles at them. They just die too fast.


so then what are destroyers used for? Only pvp?

And when I am fighting either NPC or PvP...I want to orbit the enemy right?



Well....not always. Here's something on traversal/angular mechanics in relation to tracking/range. That doesn't come into play with missiles so you want to exploit this weakness against turret ships as much as possible. Against drone boats kill the drones first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvfhVXbMgc8

I'd suggest you fly both blaster and rocket fit frigates to see how both work and where their weaknesses are. ...and the parts I underlined above aren't true all the time...you can get in web/scram range with rockets only "kite" fits can't go that close. Also getting bumper to bumper with a neutron fit frigate isn't a good idea. You cannot "get under" every gun especially small ones. Other than that it's a good explanation of sig radius/speed and missles
Enochx Kaine
Doomheim
#18 - 2013-05-30 01:05:37 UTC
Thomas Builder wrote:
Enochx Kaine wrote:
so then what are destroyers used for? Only pvp?
Oh, you can do PvE in Destroyers - they deal far more damage than Frigates, which allows you to complete missions more quickly. Just be aware that they also take more damage than Frigate, so if you have trouble surviving a mission in a Frigate, using a Destroyer won't help - on the contrary.

Enochx Kaine wrote:
And when I am fighting either NPC or PvP...I want to orbit the enemy right?
Not always.

Orbiting closely is a good idea if you have better tracking than your enemy, as it will reduce his damage more than yours.
OTOH, if you have better range than NPCs, I prefer to fly away from them in a straight line, matching their speed to keep them exactly at the distance I want them to be. While you could theoretically "orbit" at a large range, I find the flying manually in a straight line works much better.

In PvP, the same general rule applies, but it becomes more complicated depending on the circumstances. If you are in a small ship, you often (but not always) want to orbit closely, but not too closely, in order to stay out of smartbomb / web / point range. And you'll often have to fly manually, as good pilots will use the quirks of the autopilot against you.



How do you fly manually?
Enochx Kaine
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-05-30 01:26:38 UTC
I read somewhere that people generally don't like missle users in pvp. Is this true? If I choose to use missles, will it be hard for me to find a group or a corp or anything like that?
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#20 - 2013-05-30 01:54:47 UTC
Enochx Kaine wrote:
Dude....I just put three missle launchers and a bunch of rockets on my condor and holy hell....those things rule. It looks like missles are better than rockets, but there must be a trade off somewhere. Can someone tell me the pros and cons of rockets vs light missles vs heavy missles vs etc.? Is it just a capacitor thing or only a range thing or what?


Rockets = higher DPS, shorter range.
Light Missiles = lower DPS, higher alpha, longer range.

Heavy Missiles = lower DPS, higher alpha, longer range
Heavy Assault Missiles = higher dps, shorter range

If you like Rockets, check out the Hawk.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
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