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Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

First post First post First post
Author
kyofu
Praetorian Black Guard
#161 - 2013-05-28 23:13:01 UTC
*Sigh*

The response we got in the feedback thread in Test was that some of our concerns would be addressed in this blog. This Blog is depressing, as it seems the many many valid concerns people voiced were mostly ignored and are now just being repeated here.

Issues with this "exploration" expansion (I am tempted to call it a nerf) are as follows, in no particular order:

1) Auto-recalling probes. No for so many reasons including: Ruining our suspended disbelief, keeping consequences for stupidity/inattention, economy, legitimate reasons to leave probes out.

2) Loot pinatas. My wrists hate them, they are psychologically discouraging, the interface is poorly designed for the mechanic. We are used to RNGs, we have a long standing love hate relationship. Leave the dynamic invisible so we can continue cursing at / praying to our RNG god instead of watching our shiny loot dissapear before our eyes.

3) Changing grav sites to anomolies. The multiple reasons have all been listed many times over, and it's just another ill-conceived change. Just seems like a backwards change, and it's especially depressing because the ice belts being anoms seems like a lost opportunity to increase the importance of exploration. Making them sigs would have been a very interesting change.

4) Blocking Tengus out of 4/10s. While I do not disagree with the intent behind this change, it is a faulty approach. First off 4/10s are in lowsec, Tengus should not be locked out of lowsec sites. Second, it makes no sense to block T3s but to allow a plethora of much larger ships into the same site. Third, it will not fix the problem I assume you are trying to address in hisec as people will simply switch to ships that are similarly capable. The removal of DSPs removes the necessity of an expanded probe launcher so Tengus have already lost one of their primary advantages for this application making this transition even easier.


5) DSPs, but it has already been made quite obvious that no action or arguement from your player base will under any circumstances affect your resolve to remove them.

You know what a great approach would have been?

If you want to remove DSP filtering, just either normalize or randomize all signature strengths (Which you seem to have done anyway). WH residents still would have freaked out at you, but if you normalize them you could leave WH sigs as is and everyone is happy.

If you want to stop Tengu's from farming 4/10s in hisec, remove 4/10s from hisec. Removing DSP filtering also would have affected this.

I think the worst part though is just the dissapinted feeling after waiting so long for exploration to get new content. (Most) explorers were looking for some minor interface tweaks and a new feature or two and everyone would have been overjoyed.I believe exploration is the system/profession with the most untapped potential in eve, but instead of adding content, mixing up the difficulty of sites, mixing up the distribution of sites or acting on any of the many many great ideas that have been proposed and discussed. Instead we get a system revamp that few if any wanted, and are left to feel we were better off if everything was just left alone.

That is a very depressing thought, as it feels as though there is nothing to look forward to in exploration.
Mstr Wu
Ice Consortium
#162 - 2013-05-28 23:13:04 UTC
GetSirrus wrote:
updating this this from: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2935774#post2935774

Removing grav sites in hi-sec removes the incentive for miners to expend their skills into Exploration¹. Also removes the compromise that gankers need either a scan ship in their gang or fitted probe launcher. (and necessary skills)

I would note that grav sites are highly competed for in hi-sec as they are. These are easily located following downtime. Will there be a corresponding change here? A common practice for many hi-sec mining crews is to remove the high end ores and leave remaining low-end ores. The site does not de-spawn to generate anew elsewhere. Would it not be possible to have the site timeout when there no activity within after an hour or so?

And since it will be asked anyway. Removing grav sites from probing, will there lead the option for skill re-allocation from astrometric investment?

¹ making something easier is not an incentive

Removing one quarter of the functionality with probes (ie gravs) is not retaining "the whole" that you mention in your blog.

I guess it's also time to dump Sister LP and probes, since their market value is about plummet.



Your questions and insight are predicated on the false assumption that the dev teams involved with these changes actually care what you think or want.
Vakasho Umi Kenshar
Doomheim
#163 - 2013-05-28 23:16:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Vakasho Umi Kenshar
Kitanga wrote:
So i can save my pattern by setting it up and then always launching by clicking on the mod only, all well and good.

BUT, if for some reason I decide to try and launch my probes with one of the given default patterns and start probing, now my custom pattern is blown away. it needs to be take a step further so that the custom pattern is static and saved somehow.


As it is currently on Sisi: it retains your pattern only after a session change (and probably expiration, but I haven't tested this one). If you just recall your probes while staying in system, and launch them again, your configuration is lost. It works if you manually recall AND jump/dock though, so it looks like it's still being worked on.

But at least, now, activating the launcher after a manual recall of the probes will drop them one on top of another, as it currently works on TQ, if none of the preset formations has been selected prior to that. I don't know if this will stay like this however.
Mstr Wu
Ice Consortium
#164 - 2013-05-28 23:17:14 UTC
kyofu wrote:
I think the worst part though is just the dissapinted feeling after waiting so long for exploration to get new content. (Most) explorers were looking for some minor interface tweaks and a new feature or two and everyone would have been overjoyed.I believe exploration is the system/profession with the most untapped potential in eve, but instead of adding content, mixing up the difficulty of sites, mixing up the distribution of sites or acting on any of the many many great ideas that have been proposed and discussed. Instead we get a system revamp that few if any wanted, and are left to feel we were better off if everything was just left alone.

That is a very depressing thought, as it feels as though there is nothing to look forward to in exploration.


All this expansion has done for me is made me want them to finish INCARNA so they stop ******* with things that do not need to be ****** with, just for the sake of "HEY WE UPDATED THIS JUST LIKE YOU WANTED".

Because really, nobody wants these changes.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#165 - 2013-05-28 23:18:10 UTC
Probes getting in the cargo automatically if jumping, docking or expiring sucks tbh. It is dumbing down EVE.
The function of DSP was not replaced by anything. Why?

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.

Cup1dStunt
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2013-05-28 23:26:29 UTC
Roime wrote:
St Mio wrote:
Exploration expansion \o/


Where?



The expansion where former explorers get to explore other parts of the game (or other games)
Sri Nova
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2013-05-28 23:37:31 UTC
The auto recall of probes is a bad idea and needs to removed .

1. breaks current combat probing strategies used to probe multiple systems.

2. is against the underlying principals of the eve economy.

i know you guys are trying to make it more accessible but at least give those who use probing in a more advanced fashion, a option to turn off auto recall .

Also deep space probes need to be discussed to many good points have been brought up in light of their removal .

at the very least consider including their functionality in some form, into the new system .


And last , please let us scan down wrecks !!



Himnos Altar
An Errant Venture
#168 - 2013-05-28 23:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Himnos Altar
IceGuerilla wrote:
Easy mode: engaged


I'll just leave this herre...

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3umbmc/

I'm rather dissapointed by the gutting of the scanning profession. It is currently something that anyone can do, most people can do well, and few people excel in.

I.....do well when I scan.

Yes, it's a mind-numbing task, but so is mining, grinding missions, or gate camping for 5 hours and getting 4 activations in that time.

Don't really have much to add to this discussion. Just the Picard gif

Quote:

Probes, even the faction ones, are like T1 laser crystals. They never ever run out. This is surely an oversight?

To fix this I propose you make probes single use by removing the recall button. This will mean you will need to carry a supply of probes on all exploration expeditions.

I personally haven't needed to buy or make any probes for about 3 years.


Oooh....I support this feature and/or service from page 4.
Dino Boff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-05-29 00:13:22 UTC
Nice changes. I've always been sad too few newbies started eve by running exploration. I hope it will bring more players to it.

I just hope w-space mag and radar won't be too messed up.

Also, can you still copy/paste the signature list?
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#170 - 2013-05-29 00:17:36 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Auto probe recall is not hand holding, its part of the war on clicks.


They just created a mini game that requires dozens upon dozens of clicks.

They next created canisters that must be chased by clicking and picked up by clicking.

I am not sure what war you think they have entered.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#171 - 2013-05-29 00:20:35 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
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CCP Orion
C C P
C C P Alliance
#172 - 2013-05-29 00:21:35 UTC
Dino Boff wrote:
Nice changes. I've always been sad too few newbies started eve by running exploration. I hope it will bring more players to it.

I just hope w-space mag and radar won't be too messed up.

Also, can you still copy/paste the signature list?

yes, copy to clipboard is unchanged.

Senior Programmer - Team Super Friends EVE Online, CCP Games

Nar Tha
Doomheim
#173 - 2013-05-29 01:06:31 UTC
I don't know if it's the right place to ask this but maybe you can answer it anyways.

Are there still gas sites with hacking containers in them? (the pirate facility sites)
Belshazzar Babylon
Doomheim
#174 - 2013-05-29 01:10:06 UTC
CCP what are you doing?????? Why not just put Grav sites on the overview now. If someone can't be bothered to scan a site why should they be able to get the better ore? You are going to completely kill mining in WH's and Low Sec. How can a couple of miners in a WH with no local possibly catch a cloaky coming in that can warp right to them?

Did nobody think about this or did CCP think miners should not have a chance?
Sarmatiko
#175 - 2013-05-29 01:18:17 UTC
For Odyssey CCP tweaked some exploration modules such as Purloined Sansha Codebreaker, making it most effective codebreaker in the game.

Is there any plans to make Echelon actually flyable by adding at least 1 utility high slot for probe launcher or turning it into T1 exploration frigate?
Dominatus01
State War Academy
Caldari State
#176 - 2013-05-29 01:18:59 UTC
A lot of players, myself included, have tested out this new system on the Test server and also provided extensive feedback. The feedback thread on the scanning system was quite immense.

Personally, I can only speak for myself, when I say that I am hugely disappointed that the vast majority of that feedback seems to have been completely ignored.

Again, my own personal opinion, having used both scanning systems is that the "new Odyssey" system seems to more of an original prototype varsion, and the "current" DSP method seems to be more like a refined "updated"version.

The Odyssey system has been dumbed down to such an extent that it no longer makes exploring the fun passtime that it is now. It has become something that involves little to no challenge, and therefore it becomes very boring very quickly. This type of sentiment and the reasoning behind it was voiced and explained many many times in the SiSi feedback thread, yet it seems to have been ignored.

Personally, I'm at a little bit of a loss as to why there was any testing & feedback in the first place now. Not enough time was allocated for player feedback to be taken into consideration and actioned, prior to Odyssey launch, so why engage in that activity?

I think that the team behind these changes have lost sight of one important fact, and that is why people partake in Exploration in the first place. It's much the same as many other activities in EvE, we indulge in them because of the challenge / risk / reward. Principle amongst those reasons, I feel, is the challenge. The new scanning system takes away the challenge. By attempting to fix something that wasn't broken, I feel that they have in actual fact largely removed Exploration as a viable passtime from the game itself. There's no real challenge or learning curve to this new system. There's no eagerly waiting to train up skills to make it more efficient.

Above all else, there's no need to practice scanning for hours on end to become better at it and get the resultant feeling of exhilaration and joy as you become faster at scanning things down.

There may well be some "back-slapping" going on in offices somewhere at the moment at a job well done, but I fear that feeling may well turn to egg on faces once this goes live. I predict a huge downturn in the amount of people scanning and enjoying exploration from the current levels after this new system has been live a few months.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-05-29 01:21:32 UTC
Just fyi, turning ore sites into anomalies makes them worse, not better. Highsec sites will be swarmed over by the huge numbers of miners (I'd hardly call that exploration) lowsec and w-space sites will be giant 'target me' signs, and in nullsec they'll be 'just another belt' with nothing in there not already available in regular belts (except in shallow nullsec - which is just as bad as lowsec).

Bad change.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.

Zane Ziebold
Repo Industries
#178 - 2013-05-29 01:23:50 UTC
Quote:
As part of the work Team Five-0 is doing, Ore sites (aka Gravimetric sites) are being made Cosmic Anomalies instead of Cosmic Signatures, meaning you no longer need probes to find them.


I still want to know why you are doing this it seams my post on the test server did not get an answer. I still think this is going to hurt more than it helps. PLEASE change this back to the way it was, or at least tell us why this is happening. If scanning is going to be easier then they should be able to find then.
Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#179 - 2013-05-29 01:24:46 UTC
CCP Orion wrote:
Dino Boff wrote:
Nice changes. I've always been sad too few newbies started eve by running exploration. I hope it will bring more players to it.

I just hope w-space mag and radar won't be too messed up.

Also, can you still copy/paste the signature list?

yes, copy to clipboard is unchanged.



I love how devs will almost exclusively respond to the happy fluffy "atta boy" comments and not respond to any of the myriad of others. They will respond to questions that do not express an opinion for or against. But if you are clearly in the against camp... don't hold your breath waiting for a response.

We are on page 9 and at least half of these posts address the same 3-4 issues / concerns. Do they respond to any of these or god forbid add an original response saying "We see 147 people up to this point have expressed concern about X. Here are our thoughts / explanations / plans". No.

If it is not a happy fluffy CCP is the greatest... or at a minimum a carefully neutral question, you are unlikely to get a response.

WTF do we even bother....
Sassums
Repo Industries
#180 - 2013-05-29 01:30:38 UTC
Why do you fix things that are not broken?

Holding shift allows us to move all the probes at once, and hitting alt allows them to move them closer together. Why are we changing something that already works?