Player Features and Ideas Discussion

That is an interesting question I have an answer to :
There is three different turrets weapon systems, so unless they are identical, there will be one with some best caracteristic somewhere. Let's resume the strong points of each weapon system :
- AC are capless and versatile (very long max range, worst dps and average tracking allow them to use the drawbacks of other weapon systems) ;
- Blasters are mightest and shortest weapon, with best tracking, and use some cap ;
- Pulse are the farthest hitting weapon with average to good dps, worse tracking (yet very good at 10+km) and high cap use.

The question is "why does everyone use AC/missiles on unbonused ships ?"
The first answer, IMO, is because they are lazy (disclaimer : there is no problem being lazy). AC and missiles share the versatility and capless advantages which allow someone to not think about cap management and to retaliate even when caped out ; this choice also allow one to have options against any ennemy, be it short range or long range, because the tracking (or the absence of it for missiles) allow to outtrack pulse lasers and the range allow them to outrange blasters.

This last reason of versatility also lead to a second answer : the "winmatar" FOTM. Since the minmatar rebalance, there is a winmatar mindset where a lot of people believe that minmatar doctrine (and hence ships and weapons) are the best (there's many reasons for this, some are valid, some are only ideas, that's how the metagame evolve).

A third reason is because AC are the easiest short range weapon to fit, which open fitting possibilities.

Take these three reasons in the context of a non weapon bonused hull, where the weapon are then not the primary concern, so the option of versatility free up a lot of hassle : pulse and blasters need specific fit because they are specific weapons, so all your fit need to accomodate for them ; that's not the case for AC.

But as soon as you care about your weapons, the choice is the following :
- if you need range, go for pulse ;
- if you need damage, go for blasters ;
- if you don't need any of the above, you can use AC.

Pulse are not bad, far from it, but people grew for two years in an environment where cap warfare was everywhere (hello Rupture, Hurricane, and Tempest) and minmatar doctrine (fast and versatile ships) was fashionable (sometimes because they were OP, probably because of the 2 neutra).

BS always fit cap booster if they can, not only on amarr ships. And BS at small scale tend to prefer armor tank to have more utility (midslots). The 1v1 BS fights is exceptionaly rare, but most of the time, your target will be somewhere between 5 and 70km, and that's exactly where your pulse can shoot. And if the target is hard tackled, even under 5km you should be able to shoot it after a MWD cycle.

Also, cap warfare is the doom of almost all ships, and amarr ships are not more vulnerable to it, because the worst thing for a neuted ship is the inability to gtfo because of the shuted down prop mod.

He is just lying like a rug in every post he makes.

Neutralized projectile ship can still shoot, neutralized missile ship can still shoot, neutralized drone ship can still do damage, neutralized hybrid ship can shoot many times longer under neuts. Laserboat under neuts is worthless brick.

Neutralized ac/missile frig can still kill enemy drones and continue tackling, neutralized blaster frig needs just nos to kill the drones, neutralized laser frig cant do anything.

So take your 2% back where you took it out tard...

That's far too oversimplified. A blaster boat will do 0 damage if the enemy is out of range. An artillery boat will do 0 damage if the target's angular velocity is too high. Neuts are a weapon like any other - a very useful tool, but not the be-all-end-all solution. Lasers' main advantage is in staying at optimal for a considerable amount of time. If you can use that optimal, a laser ship will push out insane amounts of punishment well before the neuter crosses the maximum range. Of course, if they were able to do that regardless of the situation, lasers would be vastly overpowered, so they have their drawbacks - and neuting is one of them.

I actually said the only two ships I'm not too fond of at the moment are Tempest, and to a lesser extent the Dominix. I'm completely fine with the Hyperion and Megathron now but CCP did try to ruin them at first, which was my point. And I'm not here to argue either, I just stated that I'm happy with pretty much all of the ships. I'll be flying Apocalypse now for sure, and I'm even going to be buying a Raven and Typhoon. I never would have done that before Odyssey (sorry, I mean I never have). I'm more happy with the changes than you are, such is life.

My statement still stands. Regardless, you guys can continue to argue about lasers in this thread. I'm looking forward to the new Apocalypse, but you guys don't have to be. Good luck on getting your changes.

Generally this changes are great, meantime it buffs allready overpowered Oracle. ihope that CCP will rebalance ABC class and give them their real role - a ship between BS and BC, not better then most BS and BC in general in modern days

And how is that relevant in any case in any discussion in any universe? Also, your statement is based on nothing. But hey, you tried :-)

Btw you still didn't cope with the idea that while many races actually rely on capacitor the amarr are getting the worst of it since they aren't capable to feed their own weapons, let alone another modules.

ABC's are fine, they fill their role perfectly, in order to get the high dps or long range you have to give up tank. Take away the High DPS and all you are left with is a cruiser hull. If you want high dps and tank you need a battleship, if you want moderate dps but high tank then you are free to try the other battlecruisers. Every ship has a role and the ABC's fill their roles perfectly.

According to you, neut are only useful against amarr ships.

According to you, neut are the number one module for utility high slot.

The hypothesis of dumb people is unreasonable, so we can conclude that people fit neutralizers to counter amarr ship, obviously because they are everywhere and so powerful.

Syllogism : the basic form of logic ; also very useful for proof, by contradiction or not.

Again, far too simplified. A neutralized ship - ANY ship - will be severely hampered. Take for instance your neutralized projectile ship - its main advantage is to dictate range, long for blasters, short for lasers. If you take away its cap, you take away its propulsion, which makes it a sitting duck. A Vagabond without cap is dead, just like a Zealot is. The thing is, neuts' primary role is to take away not enemy's ability to fire, but enemy's ability to hold you down. Specifically, it's aimed at disabling their MWD and point and that works against any ship, be it Projectile, Drone or Hybrid, no matter their size. For instance, a Vaga with neuts won't have them to disable the enemy's guns - it'll have em to stop interceptors and frigates dead in tracks, so they don't stop the Vaga.

You are correct, beam and pulse laser boat will also do 0 damage if the angular velocity is too high. However, there's a difference on whether you can hit the target at 5 or 50 km when it's moving 5,000 m/s. Even with worse tracking, if your range is 50 km, you have a decent chance to pop them. That's what makes Scorch so awesome - it allows Pulses to hit very far out (for a short ranged weapon), while still retaining most of short range weapon's tracking. Blasters simply can't do that, even with Null, while ACs can, but will apply far less damage due to shorter optimal.

To put it in perspective, let's say we have a blaster, a pulse laser and an AC ship. A blaster ship will want to get in close as soon as possible, so it can start punishing the enemy. A Pulse Laser ship will try staying at Scorch optimal as long as possible, so it can avoid the enemy's advantage at tracking. An AC boat, though, will attempt to dictate range - it'll use its superior tracking at close range against a laser ship and its superior falloff against a blaster ship. Incidentally, neut range is shorter than Scorch optimal for its respective ship size, emphasizing the laser ship's importance to dictate range as long as possible.

Last but not least, you claim that Amarr boats can't use their optimal. I'm sorry, but that's simply not true. They may not be able to use their optimal all the time, which is likewise a balancing factor. For instance, a Rifter will always catch a Punisher, but whereas a Punisher cannot keep range indefinitely, it can burn away for a while, allowing for a few extra hits that may well grant him victory. If Punisher could keep range forever, that Rifter would never stand a chance, which would be imbalanced. Likewise, if Blaster boats could never get in range, that would be imbalanced. This means that on average, a laser boat must have some sort of weakness compared to those ships. Being "bricks" (though that description is also a bit archaic given their attack boats are often quite fast) is part of that weakness.