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Is this an exploit: 'Magic' bubbles?
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ShortTime ForumAlt
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-05-21 03:08:30 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
You initiated warp while a light dictor bubble was up at your destination. the dictor probe exploded and the bubble went down, but because you initiated warp while it was up, you stopped where the edge of the bubble would have been.
Not EVERYTHING the goons do is an exploit or a hack.


This is not what happened. IPAY was usually entirely empty, except for me, until the target ship(s) jumped in. Only then did the campers login and on most occasions I had landed near the bubble when they arrived from their login recovery warp. There were no interdictors or heavy interdictors in system and there was not enough time for them to drop a bubble and then warp in in their huginn and gila.

I think the grid manipulation options described will explain the bubble that caught me last year, sort of. I’ve since read the goon gridfu manual and better understand how that could happen. I am still not convinced with the explanations about the last two – my last death and the one I observed most recently.

Thanks for the thoughts and advice so far. I admit to knowing not much about grid manipulation but what I have read and what I observed do not fit together well. I agree that CFC – CONDI – GENTS must occasionally do things that do not involve exploits, scams, and hacks … and having checked out the ‘perp’ a bit more it does seem unlikely he’d be using exploits … but I am still at a loss to understand what happened. I have no intention to petition now, but am more concerned to understand the dynamics at play.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#22 - 2013-05-21 06:35:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Combatevolved wrote:
TLDR

tldr OP does not know about grid fu and how bubbles work in relation to grids.

ignorance != proof of 'exploit'.


I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.

Grid fu has been used for half a decade without it ever being declared an 'exploit', stop shitposting.


Scrub!

Edit: The OP decided not to petition, however I think it was in a post where a player asked what is allowed and what is not allowed, I tried to locate the post, but failed, the key thing for me is that I spent some time learning how to play with grids and if a scrub like you is correct then I can use it, I will send an alt to the area and get caught and then petition it to find out, nothing better than getting your own data on these things.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Britta Nolen
Sama Guild
#23 - 2013-05-21 12:57:54 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Ok I haven't figured out how your perps are doin this trick 1au from the gate as your story states... but I have replicated it in my wh Cool

I think this trick would fall under grid-fu.

This is what I did: (replace wh with gate)
1. Warped to wh. Aligned back to pos and burned off grid (~300 kms).
2. Dropped bubble off grid of wh.
3. This new grid squishes the wh grid down to ~120kms.
4. I dropped a bubble on the very edge of the wh grid so that the radius of the bubble extends into the next grid.
5. I then warped to the wh from my pos and landed offgrid of the wh what appeared to be empty grid save the first bubble that I dropped. And I dropped a third bubble where i landed. The second and third bubble in reality are probably like 5-6km from eachother but they are on 2 different grids.
6. Warp to wh again from pos and land in the middle of the third bubble.

What i understand happens here. The bubble on the wh grid will drag you like any normal bubble but you don't land on that grid since you land on the edge of that bubble. The edge of that bubble happens to be on a different grid because of how i positioned it giving you this 'magic' bubble effect. You land in an empty grid with no visual clue why warp was stopped early(or late).

The reason I landed in the middle of the third bubble and not on the edge is because that bubble isn't on the grid that I was initially warping to. So you still land on the edge of the bubble that is on grid with the wh which just happens to be right next to my third bubble.

The only way I can see these guys doing what you say they did is to expand the gate grid out to almost an AU away. Place a bubble on the very edge of the gate grid in line with other gate. Drop large bubble off grid of gate where you'd land in 'magic' bubble and drop decloaking garbage.

Cheers!


Shocked Thank you for explaining it so eloquently. Big smile
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-05-21 13:35:33 UTC
This use of grid mechanics combined with log on tactics sounds as if it certinly should be an exploit - but it aint one til the fat GM sings

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-05-21 23:19:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
There is nothing to see here guys, so move along quietly please Big smile

I’ve had this thread flagged to me, and am not entirely comfortable with being labeled an ‘exploiting autistic perp’ Shocked

I think I know which drake kill the OP refers to, and recall the setup that caught him. I also recall, of course, the recent IPAY setup we used to catch the hound. I don’t remember the tribute kill the OP mentions but his description is pretty accurate for one setup we used around a year ago.

All the same I would very much like to see the OP’s video before I confirm or deny anything.

As for exploits. Most of our methods have already been cleared with CCP. Given their nature we specifically petition, describe the methods, and have received confirmation that those methods were entirely within normal game dynamics. Some of our more recent methods have not been explicitly cleared … the jury still being ‘out’ as they say.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#26 - 2013-05-24 11:45:53 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
...As for exploits. Most of our methods have already been cleared with CCP. Given their nature we specifically petition, describe the methods, and have received confirmation that those methods were entirely within normal game dynamics. Some of our more recent methods have not been explicitly cleared … the jury still being ‘out’ as they say.


I think it shows good form that you have replied to the "Victim" of your tactics and that if you think them questionable you query them with CCP. I think the OP was asking if this was an exploit and not intending to label you an "exploiter" but I can see from his POV how, without understanding Grid manipulation etc (whether or not that was what was used) does hinder comprehension. He see's some jiggery pokery going on and asked the question of "What's this now?". He probably just wanted to understand why he lost his ship so he might account for that and provide a counter-point to it in future.

All in all, no need to abuse the OP, good comments from most and I like the way that Substantia Nigra summit's her tactics to CCP when she thinks they might be in violation before using them.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#27 - 2013-05-28 06:16:36 UTC
Honestly grids get janked up so bad without actually attempting gridfu that it's hardly worth even talking about. My favorite was a POS that was on a 100km grid. Finding it was a bear.
Cameron Freerunner
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2013-05-28 20:40:17 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Edit: The OP decided not to petition, however I think it was in a post where a player asked what is allowed and what is not allowed, I tried to locate the post, but failed

I also recall this thread from way back. I think the specific issue that was labeled an exploit was using grid fu to squash the grid on a POS. I can't remember if the issue was A. attacker squashes grid to prevent POS mods from targeting/attacking the attackers or B. defender squashes grid to "hide" the POS. I'm almost certain it was A, as B would only take traveling approx 100km toward the moon to get onto the POS grid. It was a loooong time ago though.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2013-05-30 02:26:59 UTC
I have still not seen the OP's video.

Please.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Britta Nolen
Sama Guild
#30 - 2013-05-30 08:23:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Britta Nolen
Substantia Nigra wrote:
I have still not seen the OP's video.

Please.


The part in the OP's thats clearly an EXPLOIT and should get whomever is responsible banned is the 1au drag bubble. The 5000km & 300km magic bubble aswell needs investgating; specifically. If the victim didnt warp to within 100 km from the edge of the bubble with a destination within the same grid as the bubble; BANS ALL AROUND!!!
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2013-05-30 22:48:46 UTC
Britta Nolen wrote:
Substantia Nigra wrote:
I have still not seen the OP's video.

The part in the OP's thats clearly an EXPLOIT and should get whomever is responsible banned is the 1au drag bubble. The 5000km & 300km magic bubble aswell needs investgating; specifically. If the victim didnt warp to within 100 km from the edge of the bubble with a destination within the same grid as the bubble; BANS ALL AROUND!!!


Now, as the person responsible for all the activities that the OP has queried, I view this posting as adding little except evidence of a tenuous grasp on reality.

I do do emergent gameplay stuff, and am very happy to explore the edges of what normal game dynamics allow, but as a rule I am not in the habit of engaging in bannable exploits. Please see my previous posting on how I approach those matters.

I for one, do not see Britta’s lack of understanding of ingame dynamics as being, in itself, cause for banning me for doing things he does not understand. It’s kinda like the ignorant labelling science as being magic …. and I am not keen on being burned at a stake due to Britta’s ignorance.

Cheers
Subs (the witch)

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
ShortTime ForumAlt
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-05-31 06:37:33 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
I have still not seen the OP's video.


I am sorry. I had nearly fatal ongoing wife aggro and finishing exams. Then I also find that I need much more than fraps program to make captures into a movie. Now I have a program called premiere from school but it is not easy to learn.

I have not forgotten but am being slow.
Scoto Timta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-05-31 15:03:41 UTC
Britta Nolen wrote:
If the victim didnt warp to within 100 km from the edge of the bubble with a destination within the same grid as the bubble; BANS ALL AROUND!!!

You have a mistaken idea about bubble mechanics. There is no 100 km rule. All that is required is that the bubble be on the grid you warp to and that your flight path (extended) intersect the bubble. I have caught people (and been caught) warping to their POS by using a bubble placed ~300km from POS in line with their entrance wormhole.
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-05-31 15:48:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Combatevolved wrote:
TLDR

tldr OP does not know about grid fu and how bubbles work in relation to grids.

ignorance != proof of 'exploit'.


I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.

Grid fu has been used for half a decade without it ever being declared an 'exploit', stop shitposting.

I just love it when people use big words like "ever".

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploiters-beware/

(maybe not technically grid fu as grid borders were not manipulated - however, existing grid borders were abused at gates that were placed very closely to a grid border, e.g. by camping the gate while being off-grid. several such gates were known, most of them in 0.0 but also some in high-secTwisted)

edit: hiding POS towers using grid fu was declared an exploit in 2008 and the goon wiki misinterpreted this as a general ban of gridfu (insert joke about goons and reading comprehension). Maybe that's where the idea that grid fu is an exploit comes from.

.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#35 - 2013-05-31 15:54:55 UTC
ShortTime ForumAlt wrote:
Substantia Nigra wrote:
I have still not seen the OP's video.


I am sorry. I had nearly fatal ongoing wife aggro and finishing exams. Then I also find that I need much more than fraps program to make captures into a movie. Now I have a program called premiere from school but it is not easy to learn.

I have not forgotten but am being slow.


I'm interested in how this would work for several reasons:

1.) No grid fu expands a grid to 1 au!!!! 1 au == 149 MILLION km's... The largest Grid I've ever heard about is 15 THOUSAND km's. I've personally setup grids to be several thousand km's, and even put up bubbles to pull people these insane distances, but nothing even close to an AU. Realize, at 10 km/s, it would take a ship almost a full YEAR to move 1 au! Are you absolutely certain it was 1 au?

2.) I was under the impression you had to be "on grid" with a bubble in order to be effected by it, but this is untested on my part. For example, if I have a bubble on the edge of a grid, so it's warp disrupt sphere extends to the next grid, will a ship on the next-door grid be influenced by that bubble (like pulled out of warp, or can't warp until it leaves the edge of the bubble?)

3.) My gut feeling, if the 1 au bubble is actually true: When warping, your ship bounces from grid to grid to grid each tick. It may be that if you enter a grid with a bubble you can now be pulled out of warp right there (even though that's not your warp destination). It may require even more "precise" locating, so that when you are bouncing grid to grid only if you are ever "in the warp bubble" do you leave warp... Both of these changes would be very interesting, and pretty cool (as fights may happen in locations away from gates/stations/etc).

I really want to see this video too!!! If you don't have time to "convert it and post it to youtube", perhaps you could post the full video file (create a public link with drop box or something). Granted, this depends on how big the file is.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#36 - 2013-05-31 16:00:10 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:
Combatevolved wrote:
TLDR

tldr OP does not know about grid fu and how bubbles work in relation to grids.

ignorance != proof of 'exploit'.


I am pretty sure that I read somewhere on the Eve forums a GM stating that manipulating the grid is an exploit, the OP should petition this.

Grid fu has been used for half a decade without it ever being declared an 'exploit', stop shitposting.

I just love it when people use big words like "ever".

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploiters-beware/

(maybe not technically grid fu as grid borders were not manipulated - however, existing grid borders were abused at gates that were placed very closely to a grid border, e.g. by camping the gate while being off-grid. several such gates were known, most of them in 0.0 but also some in high-secTwisted)


That link is from 2003.... that was a full decade ago, and much has changed since then!

According the Eve's Wiki,

This has previously been believed to be an exploit but is not considered one by CCP. This is therefore a valid tactic in EVE Online.

And here's the Goon's manual on how to do it!
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2013-05-31 16:12:00 UTC
You got lucky because an actual GM wrote that evelopedia article (and the relevant section hasn't changed since) but relying on evelopedia for accurate information (whether on game mechanics or on rules & policies) is very risky to put it in a friendly way.

Anyways, "ever" means "ever" and not "recently".

.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#38 - 2013-05-31 19:20:46 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
You got lucky because an actual GM wrote that evelopedia article (and the relevant section hasn't changed since) but relying on evelopedia for accurate information (whether on game mechanics or on rules & policies) is very risky to put it in a friendly way.

Anyways, "ever" means "ever" and not "recently".


And the grid mechanics have not changed too...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-05-31 20:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Substantia Nigra
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

1.) No grid fu expands a grid to 1 au!!!!

If you say so gizz, sure.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

1.) The largest Grid I've ever heard about is 15 THOUSAND km's.

I guess the rest of the eve playerbase is perhaps not limiting their activities to the narrow scope of what you may, or may not, have heard of.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

2.) I was under the impression you had to be "on grid" with a bubble in order to be effected by it,

Nope. Again, there may be a tenuous intersection set between your impressions and game dynamics facts.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

3.) My gut feeling, if the 1 au bubble is actually true: When warping, your ship bounces from grid to grid to grid each tick.

You do not usually pass through consecutive grids during warp. You may, if a grid has already been 'spawned' at a location on your warp path, but generally the warp itself does not generate a series of consecutive grids. Read my wiki on that subject ... ofc you may have to join an unwholesome and evil coalition to do that :-)

There are some special circumstances where that 'usually' is not the case.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

I really want to see this video too!!! If you don't have time to "convert it and post it to youtube", perhaps you could post the full video file (create a public link with drop box or something). Granted, this depends on how big the file is.

I would like to see it also. My theory is that he is fabricating this entirely, and has no video to show us :-)

btw: Gridfu **IS NOT** an exploit. Cease the arguing about that little element. I have recent petition responses confirming that, amongst other things.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#40 - 2013-05-31 20:32:43 UTC
Substantia Nigra wrote:
btw: Gridfu **IS NOT** an exploit. Cease the arguing about that little element. I have recent petition responses confirming that, amongst other things.



That is easy to say as you are not allowed to post replies to petitions on the forums, but of course you know that!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
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