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Dev Blog: Probe Scanning and other Goodies for Odyssey

First post First post First post
Author
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#81 - 2013-05-28 17:32:50 UTC
Azia Burgi wrote:
I am concerned about the probe expiry changes, doesn't this effectively kill the build market for probes? To be honest I have thought this mechanic has been broken for some time, it is just more evident now. Once buying your first set of probes there is no incentive to purchase more as the original set will never expire or get used up (unless of course you get blown up).


But think of all the poor newbies who get lost in Unknown space without probes. Think of the GM time that will be saved not having to clean up after the poor newbies' messes! If CCP can trim the number of GMs, there's more money to spend on flying in space.

Perhaps CCP might remove BPOs for probes and just sell them through the FW LP stores. There's no market for them anyway.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#82 - 2013-05-28 17:34:45 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
One change I would like to suggest is to use the word "constellation" when referring to groupings of scanner probes, since "formations" is already associated with fleets of space ships. At some future point in time when CCP wishes to implement fleet formations, it might become confusing if you also use "formations" to describe the arrangement of scanner probes in space.


I have to disagree here. There are already constellations, and they do not resemble probe configurations in the slightest. I'd prefer configurations (heh), patterns or formations: after all, even if the latter is eventually used for ship formations, at least the analogy is directly accurate.


OH derp. Yes, we have constellations of systems in the map. Oops

Yes, perhaps pattern would be more suitable.
Warwick Bentley
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-05-28 17:37:17 UTC
Quote:
The recall and expire options have been changed a bit – recall is now instantaneous and happens automatically on system jump or dock. Probes still have a timer, but instead of being lost when the timer is out, they automatically recall instead. The system remembers your last probe setup before they were automatically recalled so they can be quickly deployed again in the same pattern (by activating the launcher). No more forsaken probes in space!


If there was one thing I had placed great hope in for this release it was the exploration and probing changes. Unfortunately, the announced changes so far have been either cosmetic or unhelpful, addressing issues that were not problems by substantially changing the functionality of the probing system.

It seems to me that the automatic recall when leaving a system was necessitated by the implementation of automatic recall when the probe flight timer runs out. If you were able to leave a system with probes out and they tried to automatically recall when they expired, what would happen if you weren't there to receive them? Presto chango! CCP implements a new 'feature' of recalling probes automatically when docking or leaving system.

In other words, to fix the trivial problem of probe loss by timer expiration required a change that became advertised as a feature. That it affects very useful and non-exploitative probe functionality doesn't seem to be an obstacle.

I second the previous posters who have observed that these changes seem poorly thought out. Marketing fiddling as a significant change leads to players being disappointed when they see the results. I understand its hard to fix these kind of systems, but I think there were options available that take into account how players use them.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#84 - 2013-05-28 17:41:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
l0rd carlos wrote:
Can't you collapse the statics and then scan for new sigs while mining?

I'm not a wh dude, but that is what i have heard.


That used to be done with DSPs. Without DSPs, you'd only have a list of signatures with variable signal strengths. Of course you could be really clueless and probe to 100% and warp to each wormhole signature. This is a huge mistake made by noob w-space people (like I myself was one day) because that turns the other end from a 0.05% signature which most people won't bother with because they know it's just a wormhole, into a 0.27% signature which every PvPer is looking for because a K162 means HEY! THERE ARE PEOPLE HERE and if there are people in a wormhole, it usually means they're filthy rich and have lots of juicy loot to plunder.

So what happens when you collapse the static is that it will at some point respawn (that's why it's called a static). At that point you will have your static wormhole in w-space, and a corresponding wormhole elsewhere (in hisec, lowsec, nullsec, other wspace). So seeing that new signature tells you nothing.

To replicate the old behaviour with DPS, you'd just have to keep probing and watch for that new signature increasing significantly in signal strength (because it's turned from a 0.05% N110 wormhole into a 0.27% K162), and you'll need more probers because you can no longer cover the whole system with 8 core scanner probes.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#85 - 2013-05-28 17:45:30 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Auto probe recall is not hand holding, its part of the war on clicks. Drop probes scan, recall, over and over. More often than most other actions when you are exploring. Click click click. Well, now there is one less.

Is there still an "abandon probes" option? And if you do, will "reconnect" get them back?
Ok, then let's remove the click to launch probes too! I mean, seriously, Vincent, 1 click to launch probes and 1 click to retrieve. It's not that hard.

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Dmitri Ronuken
ReStore of Reset
#86 - 2013-05-28 17:46:17 UTC
Quote:
As part of the work Team Five-0 is doing, Ore sites (aka Gravimetric sites) are being made Cosmic Anomalies instead of Cosmic Signatures, meaning you no longer need probes to find them.


Well... crap. Functionally, all "hidden" belts are identical to regular belts now.

No one but the largest most well-defended of mining fleets would mine the regular lowsec belts. It certainly wasn't for lack of ore content (Hedbergite and Hemorphite in the .02 or lower sec systems is worth more than all but Arkonor and Mercoxit mining), but because the utter lack of safety for a solo/small group to mine in. PvPers or ratters could warp to a belt without using any probes (and thus without giving miners any warning) and even if they had been looking to just take on the belt rats that spawn, a defenseless 30+ mil barge that only shoots back with drones is a much easier and rewarding target.

And you can just forget about anyone but the most ignorant player attempting mining daytrips into wormholes. Mining areas are now one of two areas (the other being the combat anomalies) anyone can warp right to without the use of probes. While in lowsec, small group mining may resort to completely warping away the second someone appears in local at all, wormhole space doesn't even have a local and miners will only find out that they are not alone when a cloaked t3 decloaks 2 km away from them. Only the larger wormhole corps that can defend their entire system will be wormhole mining now, and even then they might still consider it too risky if they have a static to another high-class wormhole.

None of this is fun for miners, and it removes ore as a prize for learning exploration. Why would mining-focused players even want to get into exploration now? Small group mining will effectively be a suicide mission outside of highsec with these changes, and if CCP thought these changes would bring together miners and PvPers to do mining ops... just, no. Miners don't like getting ganked with no warning and thus no chance of escape, and PvPers don't like mining, and even the ones that do won't go on a mining op only to not mine themselves. I'm pretty sure the cost of losing an entire mining fleet or paying a merc corp for escort duty far outweighs the higher-cost ore that could be mined in lowsec vs highsec.
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#87 - 2013-05-28 17:49:36 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:
BraiZure Harloon wrote:
Dose this mean that a solo wormhole miner in a grav has no chance? Say a legion or loki enters the hole and hits up his odessy and wow there is a grav and warps to a soon to be dead retriver. The Miner doesn't even have a chance to see probes on D-Scan and bug out to the pos. Well I thought they were trying to encourage miners to take risks not comit suicide or quit mining all together.


DScan is not going anywhere.


I know, RITE? Who needs to worry about seeing someone scanning you down when you can see their ship.

Now, if only there were some functionality that I could use, that would allow me to hide from d-scan... Perhaps like some sort of cloaking device?

Maybe we could even put it on a ship that can warp while cloaked!

That would be so cash, I can't wait to see something like that go live.


hee hee I lol'd. good work.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#88 - 2013-05-28 17:49:51 UTC
Does the insta-recall mean that probes no longer warp back to your ship? Just appear in the cargo bay?

.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#89 - 2013-05-28 17:50:21 UTC
Warwick Bentley wrote:
In other words, to fix the trivial problem of probe loss by timer expiration required a change that became advertised as a feature. That it affects very useful and non-exploitative probe functionality doesn't seem to be an obstacle.


I think the entire idea of recalling probes automatically was to address the loss of probes by people who don't know what they are doing.

Those of us who have been long term subscribers are part of a niche of players who like hard games. So EVE now has a population of people who like hard games: all 300 thousand of us who live on the planet. To expand out of this niche, EVE has to cater to people who like the single-shard science fiction universe, but don't like hard games.

The next stage of course is to remove probes as items in the game and just have the probe launcher always launch 8 probes. Then there's no need to recall probes to the ship for fear of losing them and stranding the player in unknown space.

It's unfair to new players to cause them to feel loss. It's especially unfair to have regions of space which are easily accessible but very easy to get lost in. I wonder how many potential subscribers have been scared off because EVE was such a harsh universe to play in?

We need to drop this fascination with EVE being a harsh, cold universe. We need to take better care of new players, and perhaps consider treating them with kid gloves from time to time, and picking up their toys for them when they forget to clean up after themselves.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2013-05-28 17:53:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
You know, I really try to keep a positive view of CCPs attitude when changing stuff. And I am not saying changing stuff is bad.

But CCP please tell your marketing guys not to lie to us, when you don't even listen to the feedback of those who actually tested the stuff you change and constuctivly participated when you asked for feedback on the testserver forums (as you do ask us to give it a chance before condamning stuff quite a lot - showing that you actually have quite the hard time to listen to your long standing customers in the first place) .

Don't tell us we are EVE and this is our game, when in reality it is your ego playground and you do what you wanted in the first place anyway.
I am fine with the latter. Just don't tell us lies to make yourself feel better. In the end we are all free to do what we want and live with the consequences. And this is no personal attack on this particular team, it's something CCP as a whole has to grow out of (who forces you developers to waste time on the feedback forums anyway, if the same instance is not making sure to make their marketing agenda something that really happens and are not shallow and biased words to make us hold out a bit longer? - Not that I'll stop playing anyway, it still makes me mad.

I don't even care to elaborate here of what all this feedback was all about, the testserver feedback thread is full of it, but let me say this: your super long list of "awesome" new changes plus the picture of the scanning window just make me furious and is only topped off by using the scanning overlay as the lame excuse that it is.

I have to make myself stop, otherwise I'll be at it for hours. o/

And repair the goddam forums, I never wrote a post and actually were able to just click post. Copying all my text, click post, repaste and click post every single time I posted something since the new forums is something I have never experienced on any other forum. Drafts are bullshit.

.

Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#91 - 2013-05-28 17:54:38 UTC
Nica Demus wrote:
First off, WH mining just became so ridiculously dangerous that I'm surprised WH mining sites aren't being accompanied by an enormous buff. It's always been hard to catch miners who are on their toes because they were attentive to dscan, but now -- in a WH system that is bigger than dscan range -- I don't see how they stay safe without someone constantly counting signatures. Please consider keeping WH mining sites as something that needs to be scanned down. The risk / reward is out of balance.


You're doing it wrong mining solo?

When my corp had a wh we mined sites with the system entrances watched and bubbled with other security on standby, and everyone shared the profits.

Teamwork is the best counter to this change in other words and for those already doing teamwork it doesn't really change anything.
Lirinas
B.C.C.O.F Investments
#92 - 2013-05-28 17:56:34 UTC
As a long-time explorer that's run through every iteration of the scanning system, this is the first time I feel the system has taken a step backwards. Some of the changes are logical and should have been implemented a long time ago. Renaming the old Gravimetric/Ladar/etc sites to more logical names is smart. However most of the other changes are less than stellar.

Why remove the Deep Space Probes? I used those extensively as a quick system-wide scan since they were the only probe that was guaranteed to be able to scan even the largest solar systems. With the size of some systems, even a full 8 probes can't fully scan the system the same way a single DSP could scan it.

Why remove Ore sites completely from the exploration system? I can see a viable reason for making some Ore sites as Anomalies now (especially if they ever fully remove static Asteroid Belts like they are Ice belts) , but why not leave smaller, more-valuable Ore sites as Signatures? I see no logical reason for this move.

I agree with others about the skill changes too. As a Rank 8 skill, Astrometric Rangefinding gives a very small benefit in comparison to it's skill training time. Maybe the Tech 2 modules will make up for that, although I really don't see the need for those modules in general.

Speaking of the new modules. What's the point in them? Combat ships will rarely use them because, well, they're combat ships. Specialized scanning ships won't need them because, well, they can already do their job pretty good. I would have rather seen some new probes types and functionality introduced (I've seen some pretty cool ideas too).

I can't comment too much on Probe formations since I've not seen that on SiSi yet. Sounds like a neat idea, but also an unfinished idea.

I'm not too fond of the "fire all probes at once" idea. Launching 4 at a time, with a faster probe reload speed would have been much preferable. Oh, maybe change Astrometric Acquisition to something more useful, like reducing probe reload speeds greatly?
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2013-05-28 17:58:08 UTC
Launching of probes is also a hamfisted solution. If I want to launch just one I have to:

1. unload all the probes
2. load just one (if they are all in one pile I have to open cargo hold, drag-drop the pile on the cargo hold to separate just one)
3. load the lone probe
4. launch the probe

...or the other way:

1. launch all the probes
2. shift click 7 of them
3. recall the ones I just highligthed

Similar mechanic if you want any number other than... say, the maximum the launcher can hold.

I can't believe this is the best you could come up with. So much for improving the UI experience.

Why not leave it as before, but add a "launch all probes" button in the scanning window next to the recall button...or the other way around, leave it as it is (in vomit mode) and add a button next to the recall one that launches probes one by one (ala pre-oddysey).

Or add the options to the nifty radial scanner menu?

Or add a new radial menu to the actual module?

Or add it to the right click menu for that module?

Steijn
Quay Industries
#94 - 2013-05-28 18:03:23 UTC
1 - Auto-recall needs to be done away with, or at the very least, optional via a checkbox.

2 - when probes are released they should be released AT the position my ship releases them, not some obscure focal point of your designation.
Steffi Glitterfluff
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-05-28 18:09:51 UTC
Havent download latest sisi yet , but
What happens with POS rework where we can open any labs/array from any distance within pos shield ?
is still being release with odessy ?
Steffi Glitterfluff
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2013-05-28 18:09:58 UTC
sorry doublepost
Nar Tha
Doomheim
#97 - 2013-05-28 18:12:01 UTC
Hi.

In the devblog it says DSPs are changing into combat probes. In this post it says they are changing into core probes. Which one is correct?
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#98 - 2013-05-28 18:12:28 UTC
Roime wrote:
Does the insta-recall mean that probes no longer warp back to your ship? Just appear in the cargo bay?



yes. we have entered the realm of magic now.

apparently middle earth was found in some remote wormhole, and Gandalf was very willing to share some of his wizardry with the rest of the universe. look for more magical behavior in future expansions, its coming.

we have crossed from sci-fi to fantasy, folks.
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-05-28 18:12:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Savira Terrant
Well, don't waste your time here everyone. They won't pull back on something they've put full 7 sprints on (actually to call it sprints is quite applicable here, since they just sprinted through production without even looking back and think "Hey what the hell have we done here? Now the system is totally broken!"). The - yet unfinished, as per feedback - cosmetic stuff looks juicy, but that's about it.

.

CCP Paradox
#100 - 2013-05-28 18:14:09 UTC
Nar Tha wrote:
Hi.

In the devblog it says DSPs are changing into combat probes. In this post it says they are changing into core probes. Which one is correct?


We initially decided upon Core probes, but this is incorrect. Combat probes will be exchanged for the Deep Space Probe removal. Changing DSP into Core didn't seem right, as Combat probes could still locate ships/structures etc the same as a DSP could.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician