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Proposed fix to "cloaky camping"

First post
Author
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-05-27 21:06:31 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
AFK cloaking is not an issue. Wormhole space does not have local and no-one is complaining about AFK cloakers. ...

Invalid argument.

You cannot jump into a worm and popping cynos is one of the principal functions as well as threat posed by cloakers .. ie. the lack of local has nothing to do with it.

*bops Veshta with a Local window* The problem isn't jumpdrives or cynos, it's local! No amount of pontificating about "AFK cloakers" is going to do anything about Local being a source of easy intel about K-space systems.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#22 - 2013-05-28 12:14:24 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
All the willy nilly here.

AFK cloakers are not a problem because they're AFK.

The problem is that it's a schroedingers cloaker, the cloaky may or may not be AFK you never know, but if you don't act like he is behind his keyboard (even if het might well be AFK going to the pub, having a good time with his girlfriend or just sleeping) you ARE going to lose your ship sooner rather then later.

And there's the imbalance, when I play eve, I'm behind my keyboard. The cloaker might as well not be behind the keyboard 90% of the time, I still have to act as if he is active, because I never know when he IS going to be active.

So, even when not behind the keyboard the cloaker is effecting my gameplay directly. I don't mind cloakers effecting my gameplay but please let them be behind the keyboard when they effect my gameplay, just like me when I'm playing.

Then we have balance.


Why is it a bad thing that you, someone who chose to live in nullsec, has to be on guard whenever someone is in local?

You're acting as if it's unfair that you can't PVE in perfect safety in bloody nullsec.

All the stuff you said applies just as well to wormholer players - and know what we do? We DO act like as if there is the possibility of hostiles appearing in system at any second. We don't cry about it being "unfair" because we're not silly. We chose to live in this area, we deal with the constant threat inherent with the type of play we sought out.

If you don't want to deal with that constant threat, there's highsec.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#23 - 2013-05-28 12:20:20 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
AFK cloaking is not an issue. Wormhole space does not have local and no-one is complaining about AFK cloakers. ...

Invalid argument.

You cannot jump into a worm and popping cynos is one of the principal functions as well as threat posed by cloakers .. ie. the lack of local has nothing to do with it.


You can't light a cyno and jump in forces, but a K162 can open with zero notice and a fleet can slip in without any notice or warning. I say these are comparable situations. Except theres less tears from wormholes.

As for cynos in particular, the entire reason cynos are used for hot drops is - want to take a guess? - local. Local gives immediate, infallible information about fleet size and location, which makes it hard to hunt prey. Hot dropping is specifically used to get around that.

It ALL comes back to local.
Black Dranzer
#24 - 2013-05-28 16:01:24 UTC
Here are my problems with your suggestion.

The first is the false pretense that this has anything to do with server performance. The actual server cycles chewed up by people AFK in space is likely negligible. The people AFK in stations, even more so. Your argument comes across as a cheap attempt to appeal to authority, and it does not give you the appearance of impartiality. For your own sake, don't use it.

The second issue is that your suggestion is inelegant and ineffectual. For one, it doesn't cover the intrusion it serves to very passive miners or haulers. If it bases itself on ship action, a player can just park in a safe spot and start flying. If it bases itself on mouse action, a macro can be written to move the mouse. If it bases itself on player actions, a macro can be made to click the screen every so often. And if you want to counter that, you start getting into macro detection software which is prone to false positives and ends up consuming a load of client resources.

Notice how I haven't even brought into brought into question the legitimacy (or otherwise) of AFK cloaking yet. This is just a criticism of your idea even if we assume every supposition you pose is correct.

AFK cloaking has nothing to do with AFK and everything to do with the cloaking. It's not an issue with people AFKing, it's a fundamental issue with the way stealth is implemented in Eve:

Badly.

Cloaking is phenomenally stupid; Everybody in the system knows you're there, but they can't touch you. I'm a huge stealth fan in most every genre it appears. This is not good stealth. This is an invulnerability shield combined with a first strike bonus. It is an approximation of the effects of stealth, rather than an attempt to emulate its process. I've been over this many times before.

It'd take a long rant for me to properly communicate the issues with Eve's stealth, but the approximate fix is as such: It should be possible for you to watch people without them knowing that you're there. But if they do know you're there, they should be able to flush you out.

Contemplate this, then write up a new proposal.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2013-05-28 16:27:25 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
AFK cloaking is not an issue. Wormhole space does not have local and no-one is complaining about AFK cloakers. ...

Invalid argument.

You cannot jump into a worm and popping cynos is one of the principal functions as well as threat posed by cloakers .. ie. the lack of local has nothing to do with it.


You can't light a cyno and jump in forces, but a K162 can open with zero notice and a fleet can slip in without any notice or warning. I say these are comparable situations. Except theres less tears from wormholes.

As for cynos in particular, the entire reason cynos are used for hot drops is - want to take a guess? - local. Local gives immediate, infallible information about fleet size and location, which makes it hard to hunt prey. Hot dropping is specifically used to get around that.

It ALL comes back to local.


Two points:

WH-bearning and Nullbearing are entirely different animals.

In a WH, the rats deal omni damage, and are potent enough that anyone "dropping in" needs to cope with their firepower too!
In a C4-C6 WH, you generally run sites as a "group" activity, often with logistics. This makes attacking you much more difficult!
In a WH, while a K162 "may" pop up at any time, most of the WH's that access your space are fairly controllable. (Holes are often closed prior to PvE activities, which means your "aggressors" either already need to be in system prior to the start of your PvE operations, or be very lucky to find a new WH to you).

Nullbears on the other hand:
-- Thanks to in game tools, it's very easy to identify and travel to any system that is regularly used for PvE.
-- Thanks to local, it's very easy to identify when hostiles are about. No hostiles = 100% safe, which shouldn't be the modis operandi!
-- Hotdrop mechanics allow an enemy to essentially drop any size force directly on top of a target (< 10 seconds for a fleet to enter the battle). This is much, much different than having a force enter system and warp to a fleet to gank them (> 30s for a fleet to enter battle!).
-- PvE generally doesn't pay as well, although it pays far more consistently, for as long as anyone wants to PvE.

Now, I'm certainly not advocating for a tool to "hunt afk cloakers". I'm just pointing out your comparison between Nullbearing and Wormbearing doesn't really hold water. I already elaborated earlier, the two major problems in nullsec surrounding "AFK cloakers" are the hotdrop mechanics and the omniscient local intel "tool", neither of which are issues in WH's because neither exists in WHs!
Laura Dexx
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#26 - 2013-05-28 19:01:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Laura Dexx
A cloaker is AFK:

You move one system over and you can feel safe again.

A cloaker is not AFK:

There is no problem whatsoever.


Are you really bringing the servers into this argument? You know that a player that is pretty much AFK drains almost no resources?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#27 - 2013-05-29 07:54:53 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Chitsa Jason wrote:
AFK cloaking is not an issue. Wormhole space does not have local and no-one is complaining about AFK cloakers. ...

Invalid argument.

You cannot jump into a worm and popping cynos is one of the principal functions as well as threat posed by cloakers .. ie. the lack of local has nothing to do with it.


You can't light a cyno and jump in forces, but a K162 can open with zero notice and a fleet can slip in without any notice or warning. I say these are comparable situations. Except theres less tears from wormholes.

As for cynos in particular, the entire reason cynos are used for hot drops is - want to take a guess? - local. Local gives immediate, infallible information about fleet size and location, which makes it hard to hunt prey. Hot dropping is specifically used to get around that.

It ALL comes back to local.


Two points:

WH-bearning and Nullbearing are entirely different animals.

In a WH, the rats deal omni damage, and are potent enough that anyone "dropping in" needs to cope with their firepower too!
In a C4-C6 WH, you generally run sites as a "group" activity, often with logistics. This makes attacking you much more difficult!
In a WH, while a K162 "may" pop up at any time, most of the WH's that access your space are fairly controllable. (Holes are often closed prior to PvE activities, which means your "aggressors" either already need to be in system prior to the start of your PvE operations, or be very lucky to find a new WH to you).

Nullbears on the other hand:
-- Thanks to in game tools, it's very easy to identify and travel to any system that is regularly used for PvE.
-- Thanks to local, it's very easy to identify when hostiles are about. No hostiles = 100% safe, which shouldn't be the modis operandi!
-- Hotdrop mechanics allow an enemy to essentially drop any size force directly on top of a target (< 10 seconds for a fleet to enter the battle). This is much, much different than having a force enter system and warp to a fleet to gank them (> 30s for a fleet to enter battle!).
-- PvE generally doesn't pay as well, although it pays far more consistently, for as long as anyone wants to PvE.

Now, I'm certainly not advocating for a tool to "hunt afk cloakers". I'm just pointing out your comparison between Nullbearing and Wormbearing doesn't really hold water. I already elaborated earlier, the two major problems in nullsec surrounding "AFK cloakers" are the hotdrop mechanics and the omniscient local intel "tool", neither of which are issues in WH's because neither exists in WHs!


The differences you mention do exist, but personally I think at a higher, more general level they're relatively analogous. They both boil down to an enemy force appearing in your system without prior warning (due to no local / k162s and cynos, respectively) and without much time to react.

As for the PVE being 'different' (ie it being a group activity with much hardier ships/logistics in wormholes, vs solo in null) - that only really applies to the higher levels. People often do solo the lower classes, in weak pve specific fits, but even they aren't moaning about stuff.

Really, it strikes me as more of a difference in attitude: Far too many people think they SHOULD be able to dedicate their ships, fittings and playstyle entirely to PVE in null and not have to make any trade offs to deal with the Nasty Men Who Hunt Them. Wormholers either are willing to make that tradeoff without making threads begging for 'fixes', or are just crazy enough to not care in the first place
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#28 - 2013-05-29 10:23:59 UTC
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
*bops Veshta with a Local window* The problem isn't jumpdrives or cynos, it's local! No amount of pontificating about "AFK cloakers" is going to do anything about Local being a source of easy intel about K-space systems.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
...It ALL comes back to local.

Do you girls honestly believe that removal of local is the end-all of solutions?

Comparisons with worm space fail because 'normal' conditions are so different from K-space; probes are permanently in space, access can be controlled 99% and any potential threat can be neutralized using what amounts to generic fits. Security in worm space is a non-issue if you are sufficiently organized, the only threat comes from running into someone who has even better organization and/or will as the guys who went in and logged off until enough force was in system to do the job .. there is NO comparison to ordinary null space.

Don't get me wrong, I too want local control to be in the hands of whomever controls a given space or in the very least to be a delayed sort of thing .. where we differ is that I do not buy into the idea that it is all-important, I see it as smaller, albeit integral, part of it.
No one wants to have to spam scan and the potential benefits of K-space will never be enough (it would break the game) to justify the kind of vigilance needed for survival in worms.

So ... remove/delay local .. but do a number on local/access as a whole at the same time:
- redo the scanner to function more like a passive radar than an active, split ship detection from all other forms if necessary.
- add colour coding (IFF) to scanner and probe results.
- Make jump bridges into harnessed wormholes (think stargates) with aperture control and 'free' access to anyone, even hostile.
- Allow for a modicum of control over established, full-sized stargates such as temporary closure or aperture control for instance.
- Etc.

Sidenote: As perfect an intel tool local is, it is easily equalled or surpassed by that of a covert cloak user. Why is it that a cloaked ship can use active scanners with impunity? Why can transmissions to/from probes not be traced back to the controlling ship?
One might not be able to do much of anything while cloaked, but the power of intel and ready availability of 'da blob' they should be huntable (new probe set that amplifies emissions, scanning/probing leaves a 10-30s trail).
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2013-05-29 13:18:09 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui wrote:
*bops Veshta with a Local window* The problem isn't jumpdrives or cynos, it's local! No amount of pontificating about "AFK cloakers" is going to do anything about Local being a source of easy intel about K-space systems.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
...It ALL comes back to local.

Do you girls honestly believe that removal of local is the end-all of solutions?

Comparisons with worm space fail because 'normal' conditions are so different from K-space; probes are permanently in space, access can be controlled 99% and any potential threat can be neutralized using what amounts to generic fits. Security in worm space is a non-issue if you are sufficiently organized, the only threat comes from running into someone who has even better organization and/or will as the guys who went in and logged off until enough force was in system to do the job .. there is NO comparison to ordinary null space.

Don't get me wrong, I too want local control to be in the hands of whomever controls a given space or in the very least to be a delayed sort of thing .. where we differ is that I do not buy into the idea that it is all-important, I see it as smaller, albeit integral, part of it.
No one wants to have to spam scan and the potential benefits of K-space will never be enough (it would break the game) to justify the kind of vigilance needed for survival in worms.

So ... remove/delay local .. but do a number on local/access as a whole at the same time:
- redo the scanner to function more like a passive radar than an active, split ship detection from all other forms if necessary.
- add colour coding (IFF) to scanner and probe results.
- Make jump bridges into harnessed wormholes (think stargates) with aperture control and 'free' access to anyone, even hostile.
- Allow for a modicum of control over established, full-sized stargates such as temporary closure or aperture control for instance.
- Etc.

Sidenote: As perfect an intel tool local is, it is easily equalled or surpassed by that of a covert cloak user. Why is it that a cloaked ship can use active scanners with impunity? Why can transmissions to/from probes not be traced back to the controlling ship?
One might not be able to do much of anything while cloaked, but the power of intel and ready availability of 'da blob' they should be huntable (new probe set that amplifies emissions, scanning/probing leaves a 10-30s trail).


Local doesn't need to be removed completely. It does need to be disentangled from the primary K-space intel system, though. I'd go with a recent speakers local in K-space + some other mechanic introduced to provide the intel functions that the local list performs now, but with more control/granularity based on system sec, sov upgrades, etal, reverting to the full "no local" experience in W-space of course.
dark heartt
#30 - 2013-05-30 05:36:17 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how an AFK Cloaker *actually* affects you? I realise that you may not want to take the risk and perform activities in system when they are there, but surely you could move to a system nearby?


I'm still waiting...
Rex Driller
Legion of Niflheim
#31 - 2013-05-30 08:22:12 UTC
Sjugar wrote:
All the willy nilly here.

AFK cloakers are not a problem because they're AFK.

The problem is that it's a schroedingers cloaker, the cloaky may or may not be AFK you never know, but if you don't act like he is behind his keyboard (even if het might well be AFK going to the pub, having a good time with his girlfriend or just sleeping) you ARE going to lose your ship sooner rather then later.

And there's the imbalance, when I play eve, I'm behind my keyboard. The cloaker might as well not be behind the keyboard 90% of the time, I still have to act as if he is active, because I never know when he IS going to be active.

So, even when not behind the keyboard the cloaker is effecting my gameplay directly. I don't mind cloakers effecting my gameplay but please let them be behind the keyboard when they effect my gameplay, just like me when I'm playing.

Then we have balance.


Support said they also have concerns about this issue, but they dont do anything :)
GM's advice was post on forum to get enough sample from playerbase.


A possible solution: cloak needs a charge, what is behave like laser crystals.
With a 0.1% damagy/cycle 5 sec cycle time cloaker have 5000 secs, almost one and a half hour in cloak.
Thats enough time for a hunt or an OP, and active player can reload the module.
But when goes AFK, after limited time other players has a chance to get revenge :D

Kai Pirinha
#32 - 2013-05-30 10:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kai Pirinha
Sjugar wrote:
All the willy nilly here.

AFK cloakers are not a problem because they're AFK.

The problem is that it's a schroedingers cloaker, the cloaky may or may not be AFK you never know, but if you don't act like he is behind his keyboard (even if het might well be AFK going to the pub, having a good time with his girlfriend or just sleeping) you ARE going to lose your ship sooner rather then later.

And there's the imbalance, when I play eve, I'm behind my keyboard. The cloaker might as well not be behind the keyboard 90% of the time, I still have to act as if he is active, because I never know when he IS going to be active.

So, even when not behind the keyboard the cloaker is effecting my gameplay directly. I don't mind cloakers effecting my gameplay but please let them be behind the keyboard when they effect my gameplay, just like me when I'm playing.

Then we have balance.


Well well, if cloaked up people in systems are affecting your game play, then I have a solution for you!
Go into Highsec. Then there can be hundreds or thousands of people cloaked up next to you and it won't affect you one bit.

There you have your balance. Congratulations. It didn't cost the devs one line of work. :)

If you cannot take the heat of nullsec - move out!
It is called Nullsec for a reason, that means null security - there is no safety! Do you think the name is a coincidence? Or did the devs maybe assign this name for a reason? I wonder what it might be...

Hello World

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-05-30 17:50:37 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how an AFK Cloaker *actually* affects you? I realise that you may not want to take the risk and perform activities in system when they are there, but surely you could move to a system nearby?


I'm still waiting...


not a direct answer but a counter question. If we deal in risk and reward can you tell me the cloakers risk in return for the reward of intelligence on the opponents systems and threat pressure on any ops in the system?

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Laura Dexx
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#34 - 2013-05-30 21:52:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Laura Dexx
What's the risk of running a locator agent? What's the risk of looking at your star map? What's the risk of having an awoxing alt or spy to score kills? Should there be any risk for basic intel?

Even better: What if the cloaky wants to engage / hotdrop? If someone is ratting in a system looked at by an AFK cloaker, why wouldn't the cloaker think it's a trap? Maybe it's bait? Or neut fit? That's no risk?
Tarunik Raqalth'Qui
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-05-31 00:12:27 UTC
Laura Dexx wrote:
...

Even better: What if the cloaky wants to engage / hotdrop? If someone is ratting in a system looked at by an AFK cloaker, why wouldn't the cloaker think it's a trap? Maybe it's bait? Or neut fit? That's no risk?

Because nullbears are dumb. ;)

I would like to see more cloakdroppers get nailed by such bait. :D
Sayf ulMulk
Royal Starlancers
#36 - 2013-05-31 18:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayf ulMulk
Well removing local will not happen as ccp just boosted the fuction of local as radar on test server with faster scrolling bind to keys instead of mouse sooo any discussion about that is pretty much over.

However every mechanics needs a balance and cloaking has no counter balance. So either it should be nerfed or changed in different direction. It has nothink to do with living in 0.0. I remember same attitude back in the day from people who used nano battleships. If it works but doesnt have counter balance it doesnt mean its right.
Svarii
Acclimatization
#37 - 2013-05-31 19:55:02 UTC
AFK Master Here.

If I want to run my game 23.5/7 so I can sit down and play when I walk past my comp without having to load it up everytime, why should that not be allowed? I browse the internet and check my email in game, I also leave for hours at a time while looking at my spaceship from the other room. If I chose to waste my money by doing nothing at all, I doubt that is hurting the servers, it's probably helping them actually. They still get my money and I'm sure the 'load' on the server is nill compared to me flying around.

Anyways, if you don't like them, just camp out and wait for their return to the keyboard. Or scan down those 'cloaky AFK' people, bumb their ship, and open fire.

BTW: I never heard of an undamaged Kleong Battlecruiser or Romulan Warbird having a problem keeping their cloak online. (No SciFi issue here)

I don't see a problem. (Jita is a special case, and I'm sure CCP does their best there.)
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#38 - 2013-06-01 10:19:47 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Do you girls honestly believe that removal of local is the end-all of solutions?


I'm by no means asking for local in null to be changed/removed to match wormhole space, merely pointing out that the current mechanics are the root cause behind both "AFK Cloaking" and hot dropping.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Comparisons with worm space fail because 'normal' conditions are so different from K-space; probes are permanently in space, access can be controlled 99% and any potential threat can be neutralized using what amounts to generic fits. Security in worm space is a non-issue if you are sufficiently organized, the only threat comes from running into someone who has even better organization and/or will as the guys who went in and logged off until enough force was in system to do the job .. there is NO comparison to ordinary null space.


So let me get this straight, the "conditions are so different" because wormhole players...

  • actively keep their eyes open (via probes and dscan), rather than being lazy and relying on a mechanic that can be devalued / spoofed via afking
  • have fits that are more appropriate for the situations (i.e. not minmaxed PVE fits)
  • are "sufficiently organized"


Sounds to me like wormhole players have the right idea then. They know they're not in a little happy safe farm zone.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#39 - 2013-06-01 10:21:28 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
dark heartt wrote:
Can someone please explain to me how an AFK Cloaker *actually* affects you? I realise that you may not want to take the risk and perform activities in system when they are there, but surely you could move to a system nearby?


I'm still waiting...


not a direct answer but a counter question. If we deal in risk and reward can you tell me the cloakers risk in return for the reward of intelligence on the opponents systems and threat pressure on any ops in the system?

m


Whats the risk in looking at the local list to determine who is in system and how many friends they have
Kai Pirinha
#40 - 2013-06-02 08:20:06 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Do you girls honestly believe that removal of local is the end-all of solutions?


I'm by no means asking for local in null to be changed/removed to match wormhole space, merely pointing out that the current mechanics are the root cause behind both "AFK Cloaking" and hot dropping.
How about (read it to the end first) removing local and replacing it by constellation chat? You still have your intel and that somebody is in your constellation, but you won't see how many and who is in your current system.
So your intel channel become more valuable too, because you can keep an eye at gates and report the guy/fleet.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
So let me get this straight, the "conditions are so different" because wormhole players...

  • actively keep their eyes open (via probes and dscan), rather than being lazy and relying on a mechanic that can be devalued / spoofed via afking
  • have fits that are more appropriate for the situations (i.e. not minmaxed PVE fits)
  • are "sufficiently organized"


Sounds to me like wormhole players have the right idea then. They know they're not in a little happy safe farm zone.

This!

Hello World