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Gravimetrics in Odyssey

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Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-05-27 23:53:20 UTC
James Arget wrote:

An hour is pretty long. That said, there is an argument to be made that the time should be greater than zero.

A lot of the specifics are not set in stone yet, so we'll be talking with CCP about how different design choices they have will affect wspace people as well as kspace.


Chitsa Jason wrote:


Tuna I am aware of how ridiculous this will be for catching people in whs as I do this myself. Believe when I say that I am interested myself for this mechanic do get delayed mode or even to remove sigs from overlay.


Thank you guys so much for taking the time to respond to everyone's concerns here. I am glad that we are on the same page in regards to the overlay and the fact that new signatures showing up instantly will adversely affect WH life. I think there's a few suggestions that CCP could easily code in to fix the problem.

1. Disable the "auto-repeat" function of the Discovery Scanner and put in a 10-30 minute delay or session change before it can be used again. This seems to be the easiest option. What purpose does an auto-repeating Discovery Scanner have anyway?

2. Only show a full list of signatures (including new WHs) upon a session change. The purpose of the Discovery Scanner was to show people what was available to explore, not to be a real time intel tool. Having new signatures/anomalies update only on a session change achieves CCP's objectives and addresses our concerns as well. This however would require DSPs to remain in the game so if that is not possible then this suggestion may not be as viable.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#42 - 2013-05-28 00:18:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Chris Winter
The instant intel from the DS is the replacement for the gankers no longer needing to put out probes to find the grav site. Removing the possibility for the miner to GTFO when they see trouble coming will kill mining in lower-class WHs--thus reducing the number of targets you have available.

Honestly, it's balanced right now.

Tranquility server: Gankers have to put out probes to find the miner, miner can see probes on dscan.
Odyssey patch: Gankers don't have to put out probes to find the miner, miner can see new sigs on overlay.

It's already a bigger buff to the gankers, since the time it takes to find a miner has been sped up greatly. It's also a win for the gankers if you find an already-open hole.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-05-28 00:44:23 UTC
it isnt just about miners, it's about getting any wort of kills, specifically capital escalation fleets.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Van Kuzco
Perkone
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-05-28 01:52:14 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
The instant intel from the DS is the replacement for the gankers no longer needing to put out probes to find the grav site. Removing the possibility for the miner to GTFO when they see trouble coming will kill mining in lower-class WHs--thus reducing the number of targets you have available.

Honestly, it's balanced right now.

Tranquility server: Gankers have to put out probes to find the miner, miner can see probes on dscan.
Odyssey patch: Gankers don't have to put out probes to find the miner, miner can see new sigs on overlay.

It's already a bigger buff to the gankers, since the time it takes to find a miner has been sped up greatly. It's also a win for the gankers if you find an already-open hole.


This is a much bigger issue than ganking miners. Cap escalation fleets, t3s doing sites, industrials doing PI. The list goes on and on. I am honestly confused how any WH resident could call this "balanced" now.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-05-28 02:05:41 UTC
Van Kuzco wrote:
Chris Winter wrote:
The instant intel from the DS is the replacement for the gankers no longer needing to put out probes to find the grav site. Removing the possibility for the miner to GTFO when they see trouble coming will kill mining in lower-class WHs--thus reducing the number of targets you have available.

Honestly, it's balanced right now.

Tranquility server: Gankers have to put out probes to find the miner, miner can see probes on dscan.
Odyssey patch: Gankers don't have to put out probes to find the miner, miner can see new sigs on overlay.

It's already a bigger buff to the gankers, since the time it takes to find a miner has been sped up greatly. It's also a win for the gankers if you find an already-open hole.


This is a much bigger issue than ganking miners. Cap escalation fleets, t3s doing sites, industrials doing PI. The list goes on and on. I am honestly confused how any WH resident could call this "balanced" now.


It is an issue. Although I am curious on a sidenote about Cap escalation fleets. I haven't yet had the priviledge of playing at the varsity level, but I don't understand the difficulty catching a cap escalation fleet. When the dreads on field siege aren't they stuck? so essentially depending on the timing the fleet is stuck there for 5 minutes if a new sig spawns, unless they wanted to leave the sieged caps behind?

Seems very much like some C4 sites, where the sleeper BS can keep you pointed for a period of time, so if we were to get visitors its either stay and fight or leave the pointed guy behind to die.
Amanda Chelian
#46 - 2013-05-28 02:25:42 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
it isnt just about miners, it's about getting any wort of kills, specifically capital escalation fleets.


Except that I started this thread specifically with miners in mind, it's you guys who pulled a colossal derail on me.P

While I fully agree the new overlay shouldn't give players intel on a silver platter, everyone seems to have conveniently ignored that these changes completely ruin any logical reason to mine ore in w-space. The fix is easy, too, just convert only the k-space gravimetrics into anomalies, and leave the w-space ones as signatures. Because let's be realistic here, if you're in w-space and don't have probes to find a grav belt, you have way bigger problems anyway.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-05-28 02:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Miton
Derath Ellecon wrote:
It is an issue. Although I am curious on a sidenote about Cap escalation fleets. I haven't yet had the priviledge of playing at the varsity level, but I don't understand the difficulty catching a cap escalation fleet. When the dreads on field siege aren't they stuck? so essentially depending on the timing the fleet is stuck there for 5 minutes if a new sig spawns, unless they wanted to leave the sieged caps behind?

youre not wrong, obviously you can't warp sieged dreads out and the sleepers do point, but any sort of pre warning is going to allow you to not warp in that last cap, or hit red on the timers, or hell, just log off (yeah there's a 5min agro timer now but that's likely enough).

also, a lot of people dont keep probes out when running sites. myself included cos, well, im lazy like that ;)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Llewsor
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-05-28 06:31:38 UTC
All I see here is wah wah wah we wormhole snowflakes don't like any change whatsoever, please hand us easy living on a plate wah wah wah.

CCP, make it much more random and give us constant change and more change, please! It should be, "OK what have we been given and how will we handle it", not "CSM this and CSM that please protect us!!".

(My main lives in a wormhole but doesn't have a gigantic blob alliance to rest on as most WH alliances have become)
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-05-28 06:41:15 UTC
Llewsor wrote:
All I see here is wah wah wah we wormhole snowflakes don't like any change whatsoever, please hand us easy living on a plate wah wah wah.

CCP, make it much more random and give us constant change and more change, please! It should be, "OK what have we been given and how will we handle it", not "CSM this and CSM that please protect us!!".

(My main lives in a wormhole but doesn't have a gigantic blob alliance to rest on as most WH alliances have become)


Not wanting instant and free intel is not equal to wanting easy living, on the contrary. We like having to work for our intel, unlike the sheep in null.
Llewsor
Doomheim
#50 - 2013-05-28 06:54:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Llewsor
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Not wanting instant and free intel is not equal to wanting easy living, on the contrary. We like having to work for our intel, unlike the sheep in null.


You reference this one point of change but it's the same with any suggestion of change in wormhole life.

I think it has become pretty stale now compared to the day the first wormholes opened. Please give us back the the excitement of Apocrypha where everything was new and no one has a guaranteed, safe place.

Shake it all up, a change to every single mechanic would be nice!
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2013-05-28 07:02:07 UTC
Llewsor wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Not wanting instant and free intel is not equal to wanting easy living, on the contrary. We like having to work for our intel, unlike the sheep in null.


You reference this one point of change but it's the same with any suggestion of change in wormhole life.

I think it has become pretty stale now compared to the day the first wormholes opened. Please give us back the the excitement of Apocrypha where everything was new and no one has a guaranteed, safe place.

Shake it all up, a change to every single mechanic would be nice!


If you'd bother to look up some of my posts, I've previously suggested that wormholes would be scannable on both sides when they spawn, regardless of whether they are warped to or not, addition of more random holes such as a semi-static hole where the static bit would be that one would always spawn when the other one closes, but the randomized bit would be the actual space it spawns to, as in no more knowing that I live in a C5 with C5 static, the other randomized static could lead anywhere. More guaranteed connections to every system would lead into more player interaction and as such more pew for everyone. Not being able to easily turtle up your system for farming by crashing your statics and not scanning the new one would also make things more dangerous again, even if this could be overcome by a simple change of starting to crit the holes instead.

In short, I'm all for making things more difficult and exciting, rather than introducing even more mechanics to make things even safer for everyone.
Llewsor
Doomheim
#52 - 2013-05-28 07:16:59 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
If you'd bother to look up some of my posts

Sorry dude, wasn't a personal attack. :)

Sounds like you have quite a good acceptance of change.

Borlag Crendraven wrote:
In short, I'm all for making things more difficult and exciting, rather than introducing even more mechanics to make things even safer for everyone.

The thread was originally about making mining more dangerous. I think it should be.

I also think CCP should change things that affect the top alliances as well as the new settlers. Use more bar graphs instead of cut and pasteable numbers to lessen the advantage of OOG tools. Monitor the tears in this forum to see what upsets the big alliances the most - they are the changes we all need!

Elite scanning carebearism has had its day. Let's have some change, any kind of change, all kind of change.
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#53 - 2013-05-28 07:20:27 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I've previously suggested that wormholes would be scannable on both sides when they spawn, regardless of whether they are warped to or not

Thus making it even harder for a gank fleet to catch people unawares.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2013-05-28 07:25:40 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I've previously suggested that wormholes would be scannable on both sides when they spawn, regardless of whether they are warped to or not

Thus making it even harder for a gank fleet to catch people unawares.


It'd only make it harder if people start paying attention like they should, it'd make it easier to catch the people who don't do that.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-05-28 07:32:55 UTC
Llewsor wrote:
(My main lives in a wormhole but doesn't have a gigantic blob alliance to rest on as most WH alliances have become)

buddy, post with your main or stop caring that youre being ignored. pick.

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2013-05-28 07:37:08 UTC
Llewsor wrote:
I also think CCP should change things that affect the top alliances as well as the new settlers. Use more bar graphs instead of cut and pasteable numbers to lessen the advantage of OOG tools. Monitor the tears in this forum to see what upsets the big alliances the most - they are the changes we all need!

Elite scanning carebearism has had its day. Let's have some change, any kind of change, all kind of change.


That's just bs. Mapping tools are not elite and there are plenty of freely available mappers that any scrubs can use, including the mapping tool that my alliance uses. Complaining about that is one of the stupidest things possible.
Tashima
Clandestine Services
#57 - 2013-05-28 07:43:24 UTC
Llewsor wrote:
All I see here is wah wah wah we wormhole snowflakes don't like any change whatsoever, please hand us easy living on a plate wah wah wah.

Wait, what? You think the w-space community strive for "easy living"? You think that's what they do, that's why they settled something that was not supposed to be settled in the first place.

That's just funny.
Llewsor
Doomheim
#58 - 2013-05-28 11:42:27 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Llewsor wrote:
(My main lives in a wormhole but doesn't have a gigantic blob alliance to rest on as most WH alliances have become)

buddy, post with your main or stop caring that youre being ignored. pick.

Obviously I like to be ignored. I am too small to small to instigate a direct change and don't have the RL skills to run the top WH alliance. I still like to try to plant the slightest inkling of "maybe we are all getting a bit old and staid" in people's minds if I can.
Llewsor
Doomheim
#59 - 2013-05-28 11:48:24 UTC
Tashima wrote:
Wait, what? You think the w-space community strive for "easy living"? You think that's what they do, that's why they settled something that was not supposed to be settled in the first place.

Yes I think exactly that and the constant tears when CCP change anything seem to be confirming it.

Easy life can be "easy as in HS inhabitant" (not what I meant, sorry),

...or easy life as in "I don't like to be forced to adapt to anything new".
Llewsor
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-05-28 12:15:23 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Elite scanning carebearism has had its day. Let's have some change, any kind of change, all kind of change.

That's just bs. Mapping tools are not elite...[/quote]

Not the tools, the number of people who have proudly expressed all their scanning skill levels in their fight to keep DSP and the little numbers for scan strength and, with the CSM's help, prevent anyone else having a more friendly visual scanner.

Again, CCP, please shake up the whole wormhole game and give us some challenges to overcome again. Introduce all you have suggested and even some you haven't mentioned yet! Sure there'll be some rebalancing and lots of tears, but there'll also hopefully be more game and less sheepish following of all the WH guides that are now totally established and therefore stale.

The best years of Apocrypha, in my opinion of course, were when we were all trying to work out what was going on. I think we all know all the maths and game styles now, it's too much like nullsec in that sense. If WH people can't adapt, maybe freeze WH space as it is and introduce a new kind of space for, what shall we call them, explorers? You know what, CCP, maybe this new space should be engineered to make permanent residence even harder still.