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Are hybrids inherently broken and impossible to fix?
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Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#81 - 2011-11-01 12:56:13 UTC
derp on me
Dax Redding
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#82 - 2011-11-01 14:29:50 UTC
I never see anyone talking about my beloved yet entirely useless Rokh.
Rokh looks like an amazing ship and should be, but its useless.
Elaine Shandrate
Luna Decrescentia Celeris
#83 - 2011-11-01 14:43:41 UTC
Give blasters a reduction to armor penalties or a bonus to agility, in that way only armor tanking blaster boats will benefit from it...
Kietay Ayari
Caldari State
#84 - 2011-11-01 14:46:30 UTC
Dax Redding wrote:
I never see anyone talking about my beloved yet entirely useless Rokh.
Rokh looks like an amazing ship and should be, but its useless.


D: I want to use the Rokh one day. Please fix before I can use it!

Ferox #1
Soporo
#85 - 2011-11-01 14:58:40 UTC
Dax Redding wrote:
I never see anyone talking about my beloved yet entirely useless Rokh.
Rokh looks like an amazing ship and should be, but its useless.


And the lolEagle. I checked Jita yesterday and there was ONE Eagle to be found in system and only 3 others for sale in the whole region. Eagle is broken and people know it, every other alternative is much better.

The problem is the Eagle and Rokh are good at doing things not worth doing: Utterly anemic rail dps at long ranges.

Unless there's a rail damage buff as well as the long demanded ridiculous fitting requirements and the perma self heavy neuting fix, they will remain unused.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. - H.L. Mencken
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2011-11-04 00:40:36 UTC
Here is my latest idea for a way to fix blasters, don't make them more like autocannons or Lazors. Make them more like HAMs.

"Particle blasters operate on a similar principle as the railgun except they fire a magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles. No other turret class can match the sheer destructive power of particle blasters, but due to the rapid dispersion of the containment field, it also has the worst range of all turrets. "

A magnetically contained ball of subatomic particles, is a PLASMA TORPEDO. A plasma torpedo is similar to a missile.


Plasma Torpedo
-Has Reload Time for Ammo (Same as Blaster)
-Has Fixed Damage Type (Same as Blaster)
-Has Cap Usage (Same as Blaster)
-Short-Mid Range Optimal only Weapon (Same as HAMS, Better than Blaster)
+No Range Damage degradation. (Better than Blaster, Same as Missile)
-Travel Speed, not instantaneous (Worse than Blaster, Better than Missile)
-Has Lifetime, very short (Shorter than Assualt Missiles)
Cletus Graeme
Shai Dorsai
#87 - 2011-11-04 22:10:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cletus Graeme
Onictus wrote:
Ok lets just get rid of that idea.


That was a pretty lopsided analysis. If you'd listed "ships with drone bonuses vs those with hybrid bonuses" rather than "ships with drone bonuses vs those without " you'd find it's mostly 1:1 and the drone ships are usually the better of the two. It's a similar situation with the Caldari except that in their case it's their missile ships that are better.

However, you're absolutely right to point out that Gallente should use hybrids as much as drones. My point was that Caldari should also but they haven't been able to for a lot longer than Gallente. When I started playing back in 2006 Gallente were awesome - the best race overall - but even back then Caldari rail ships sucked big time. The problems with rails have been around a lot longer than the problems with blasters so I don't want to see blasters getting fixed while rails are ignored.

So far CCP seems to be taking a strategic approach to the rebalancing rather than doing things ship by ship or race by race - which hopefully means that no ships will be left out. We'll just have to wait and see.

Soporo wrote:
The problem is the Eagle and Rokh are good at doing things not worth doing: Utterly anemic rail dps at long ranges.


Exactly. A few kickass pilots are able to make 75mm railgun Merlins work and Vultures are primarily used to provide gang/fleet bonuses but the Harpy, Moa and Ferox all share the same problem. Ironically, all 5 worked better with blasters until they too became useless!
Foofad
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2011-11-04 23:38:10 UTC
Hybrids are easy to fix. Really. Just make them exactly the opposite of Projectiles, and then make their ships good for exactly the opposite reason of Minnie ships.

In other words, make Blasters equivalent to Artillery in that they have low ROF, high alpha. Then make Rails into long range autocannons, with the highest DPS of all the long range guns (maybe), with the lowest alpha. Make Minmatar ships more agile than they are now, and nerf their speed slightly. Then make Gallente faster than they are now, possibly even with extra bonuses to MWD/AB speed or efficiency or both, but less agile. Then, all things being equal, two ships traveling in a straight line will always favor Gallente - but orbiting will favor Minmatar. Then ultimately what it comes down to is a game of the Gallente pilot doing his best to force combat movement into straight lines and the Minmatar pilot will be doing the opposite. They're different, but balanced. Ranges can pretty much stay the same.

Bam, done.

Where it gets tricky is Caldari, who should not be pigeonholed into missiles. Their hybrid boats deserve love too, perhaps some middle-of-the-road between the two above changes.
Haulin Aussie
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#89 - 2011-11-05 02:56:39 UTC
Just fly a Hurricane, a Drake or a Supercap.

That's what the rest of eve is doing, right?
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#90 - 2011-11-05 03:24:40 UTC
Change Duvoule Labs second Damage bonus to ROF on the Deimos and Astarte. Both the Brutix and Astarte could use another 30ish grid as well.
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2011-11-05 05:43:17 UTC  |  Edited by: tika te
just tested for few hours on sisi..

tl.dr.

-rails are ok; not supermegarockin' but ok.
-blasters are still broken. easier to fit now but the problems with range and rather bad tracking are still there.
tested with deimos, astarte, hyperion, talos...they're all too sloooooow for that weapon class.
fitting plates makes them agile like cotton woll. fitting armor rings really hurts your allready crappy top speed.
using active tank (with hybrids needing less pg and cap u can actually fit active tank now) works to a degree in 1on1 engagements; in small-scale fights you're lost with active tanking most of the time. (using active tank makes cap injectors must-have mods)
i'd say passive tanking bonuses are way better in 80% of cases
-the new nebulae will definetely bring some gfx-glamour to tq..
-the new lightning modes is bit too dark in low/nullsec in my opinion..i could hardly see the texture on my deimos hull..
-dreads, especialy moros/revelation can pretty much hurt subcaps. mwd'ing around in sth bigger than cruiser can make you perfect target/victim to their turrets. they'll prertty much one-shot you...it ... somehow... doesn't... feel right...
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#92 - 2011-11-05 13:59:50 UTC
tika te wrote:
just tested for few hours on sisi..

tl.dr.

-rails are ok; not supermegarockin' but ok.
-blasters are still broken. easier to fit now but the problems with range and rather bad tracking are still there.
tested with deimos, astarte, hyperion, talos...they're all too sloooooow for that weapon class.
fitting plates makes them agile like cotton woll. fitting armor rings really hurts your allready crappy top speed.
using active tank (with hybrids needing less pg and cap u can actually fit active tank now) works to a degree in 1on1 engagements; in small-scale fights youre lost with active tanking most of the time. (using active tank makes cap injectors must-have mods)
i'd say passive tanking bonuses are way better in 80% of cases
-the new nebulae will definetely bring some gfx-glamour to tq..
-the new lightning modes is bit too dark in low/nullsec in my opinion..i could hardly see the texture on my deimos hull..
-dreads, especialy moros/revelation can pretty much hurt subcaps. mwd'ing around in sth bigger than cruiser can make you perfect target/wictim to their turrets. they'll prertty much one-shot you...it ... somehow... doesn't... feel right...




About the same here, just another opinion about rails is that if they're a little better they're still stuck at PVE department, forget those for fleet, lasers projectiles and missiles ARE still better at each and every possible situation.

Blasters: mmmh duno what to say other than "is this a fücking joke?"
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#93 - 2011-11-05 15:05:12 UTC
hey i got this crazy idear... try going on SISI and Help us boost them... this time window to fix blasters is open and closing fast so if you have suggestions DL the test server and start playing around!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2011-11-05 15:08:57 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
hey i got this crazy idear... try going on SISI and Help us boost them... this time window to fix blasters is open and closing fast so if you have suggestions DL the test server and start playing around!


there are already tons of amazing suggestions. especially ones pertaining to massively buffing hybrid ammo. question is, will they listen?
tika te
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2011-11-05 15:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: tika te
Hungry Eyes wrote:

there are already tons of amazing suggestions. especially ones pertaining to massively buffing hybrid ammo. question is, will they listen?


the best turret class BY FAR are projectiles.
why? just look at it.
1. excelent dmg output when needed
2. no cap usage
3. nice range/fallof with howitzers, devastating alpha -> excelent sniper (so good that ppl even fit them on baddons and other races hulls)
high rof/dmg with decent range with autocannons->perfect for close to midrange encounters (still using them on the myrmidon i.e.)
4. fast and agile ship hulls; best suited to to projectile mecanics
5. best ammo availability; mixed dmg types available, -50%/0%/+50% range modifiers, really good t2 ammo

now just compare that list to gallente/hybrids....projectile wins at least 4 out of 5 points here.
hybrid ammo has one basic problem: apart from antimatter/lead/tungseten (short/mid/long range) there is no point in using the other types. fine setup for optiumal range during a fight is difficult because of long reload times.

i have ONE suggestion for CCP: dear devs, please, please see the weapons/hulls/bonuses of a race as a fragile package: balancing one aspect while another one still beeing week won't do any good (and vice versa).
"being competitive" is the keyword. forget about balancing-on-paper. look how players actually play this game and modify hybrids to fit the playing style not another way round.